Writing Basics 01/30/02

 Subject:  Writing Basics 01/30/02

Author:  Writing Basics Chat

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Date:  4/30/2002

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TOPIC: Poetry in Prose (applying a poet's ear to your words.)

Wednesdays

11 p.m. ET (8 p.m. PT), Writers Den

Writing Basics - Topics for new and experienced writers to develop or review basic writing skills through discussion and practical exercises. Moderated by HOST WRTR LINDA and HOST WRTR SPKLD1, mail contact: HOST WRTR LINDA. Meets in the Den.

Writing Basics Chat Logs Available

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04/17/02 -- Tax concerns for writers.

04/03/02 -- Submission guidelines

03/20/02 -- How to critique effectively

03/06/02 -- Critique guidlines (start of bi-weekly sessions)

-- 02/27/02

-- 02/20/02

-- 02/13/02

02/06/02 -- Writer's Trivia Game

01/30/02 -- Poetry in Prose (applying a poet's ear to your words.)

*01/23/02 -- The 7 Deadly Writing Mistakes

*Use this date and topic as a link to the older set of uploads.

****disinfected using Virex 6.0****

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: Poetry in Prose

Host Wrtr RGugat: or maybe using principles of poetry to add style to your

prose?

ESP Sue Z: My creative writing teacher in college wrote the formless poetry

- I asked him how to tell it was poetry instead of

prose-written-in-a-funny-shape.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Have we any poets in the room?

SeabornDan: <--- prefers limericks to poetry  hehehe

ESP Sue Z: I'm not a real poet - the only pieces I ever wrote rhymed - and

besides I sold them to magazines - real poets don't eat...

Host Wrtr RGugat: No poets?

Host Wrtr RGugat: No poets  --  good

Host Wrtr RGugat: no one to contradict me

Host Wrtr RGugat: LOL

Jackatbrun: She gave me eyes, she gave me ears, And humble cares and

delicate fears, A heart the fountain of sweet tears--and love, and thought,

and joy."

Sterlingvision: I'm working on my first novel but haven't tried any poetry

yet

SeabornDan: I'll be bailing early tonight, poetry makes me nauseous

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: Actually Sterlingvision, you have tried some...

HOST WRTR Linda: oh Sea, good poetry won't.

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: ...in every word you chose for the novel.

Host Wrtr RGugat: What is tyhe essential difference between poetry and

prose?

Sterlingvision: I don't understand

Jackatbrun: Then there's Scott Momaday describing Rainy Mountain--where

tortoises crossed the plains in the plenty of time--and grasshoppers that

jumped up like popcorn out of the grass.

ESP Sue Z: Poets try to push words into funny shapes.

Sterlingvision: ok I get it

Host Wrtr RGugat: In prose, the message counts much more than the expression

Jackatbrun: Prose is just watered down poetry.

Host Wrtr RGugat: In poetry, a balance is struck to make the expression, the

wording, as beautiful as the message

Sterlingvision: What do they call poetry that doesn't rhyme?

SeabornDan: Just write what you mean, don't try to pretty it up with flowery

speech

Host Wrtr RGugat: Dan  --  but try it the other way

SeabornDan: Sterling, um... rap music

Sterlingvision: I knew back when I was in high school, but its been so long

ago I don't remember

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: LOL Dan!

Host Wrtr RGugat: What things do you find inpoetry?

ESP Sue Z: rhythm - meter

Host Wrtr RGugat: Sue -- good

Jackatbrun: "Modern poetry" (often without rhyme or rhythm) is often as

empty as a spinster's womb.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Let's talk about rhyme

ESP Sue Z: pace that is manipulated to enhance the message

Host Wrtr RGugat: Sue --  are you sure you aren't a poet?

ESP Sue Z: I'm not - I just write poetic prose.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Poetic prose can be poetry

Host Wrtr RGugat: and sometimes better than poetic poetry

Host Wrtr RGugat: Who can define RHYME?

SeabornDan: Is Dr. Suess' FOX IN SOCKS story poetry or what?

Host Wrtr RGugat: The Doc does do poetry

Host Wrtr RGugat: and good poetry

Host Wrtr RGugat: for children

SeabornDan: Hey, that's a serious question.  Honest.

ESP Sue Z: There are different ways to rhyme words, aren't there?

Host Wrtr RGugat: yes

Host Wrtr RGugat: name one

Host Wrtr RGugat: or show us

ESP Sue Z: The whole word - I don't know what they're called :) - or the

first part of the word, or last part, or even a phrase

Host Wrtr RGugat: end rhyme

ESP Sue Z: night - light   what most of us think of as rhyme

Host Wrtr RGugat: cat and hat

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: One fish, Two fish, Red fish, Blue fish?

Host Wrtr RGugat: Spkld --  name the rhyme part

SeabornDan: Fox in socks on box on Knox

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: both words in B and D.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Two and Blue?

Jackatbrun: Good poetic prose is a synergy between sounds and rhythms. All

of a sudden you "feel" the meanings in a different, unique way.

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: yes.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Jack  --  GOOD!!!

Jackatbrun: Punctuation becomes so important, then.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Do you know what "near Rhyme" is?

Jackatbrun: Been--again.

Host Wrtr RGugat: mnore examples

ESP Sue Z: When they almost match - one may end in n and the other in m, for

instance.

Host Wrtr RGugat: everyone

Host Wrtr RGugat: pin and rim

Jackatbrun: Anyone have examples?

Host Wrtr RGugat: Everyone give us an example

Jackatbrun: In prose, I mean.

Host Wrtr RGugat: near rhyme

SeabornDan: What's a Busta Rhyme?

Host Wrtr RGugat: come on

Host Wrtr RGugat: you can do it

Host Wrtr RGugat: Dan  -- after near rhyme

ESP Sue Z: then and them

Host Wrtr RGugat: sue --  :)

NovelEagle: I think of poetry in prose as more a thing of meter and rhythm

than a thing of rhymes

TBushpurr: Can a near-rhyme be internal?

Host Wrtr RGugat: yes

Host Wrtr RGugat: TBush  --  internal rhymes are rhymes also

Host Wrtr RGugat: How about beginning rhymes?

Host Wrtr RGugat: Caterpillar and chattering

NovelEagle: how about some examples, HOST?

Host Wrtr RGugat: How about alliteration?

Host Wrtr RGugat: Puffy pillows piled high

Host Wrtr RGugat: the beginning sound repeated

Shuzzy: effects are good when used properly.

Shuzzy: (sparingly?)

NovelEagle: and hard to read when they aren't

Host Wrtr RGugat: Shuzzy  --  exactly

Host Wrtr RGugat: use this stuff toenhance your writing  -- not to

substitute for quality

Jackatbrun: Substitute? You don't mean that.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Effects would normally be used sparingly

Host Wrtr RGugat: NOT to substitute for quality

NovelEagle: alliteration is like salt - too much is deadly

Host Wrtr RGugat: You guys understand very well

Cyncity 1: couldn't agree more Eagle

TBushpurr: Right Eagle.... and you are a master at alliteration!!!

Jackatbrun: Often, a great paragraph ends with a series of elements that

come together in sound and rhythm. It just feels right.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Poetic principles in prose are spices, not meat

NovelEagle: I'm learning TBush

TBushpurr: I know Eagle...

Shuzzy: What about onomatopoeia?

Jackatbrun: The wind 'ispers.

Shuzzy: (Had to look it up to spell it right.)

Host Wrtr RGugat: Shuzzy  --  no butterflies allowed

Host Wrtr RGugat: :)

ESP Sue Z: Roy <G>

Jackatbrun: Woosy pillows.

SeabornDan: <--- had my onomatopoeia removed a few years back.  Hurt like

hell.

TBushpurr: Shuz...could you change your font????

HOST WRTR Linda: lol

Shuzzy: Sher

TBushpurr: (thank you)

Shuzzy: Okay?

TBushpurr: I LIKE that font...just can't read it...I send it to OTHER

people.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Onomatopoeia can be used effectively also

NovelEagle: Foolish feminine frippery intended to confine her mind as well

as her waist.

TBushpurr: Great Shuz, you don't have to get THAT basic... but thanks!

SeabornDan: The ono thing, isn't that like sound effects?

Shuzzy: Can't figure out how to make it bigger.

TBushpurr: Try Bold

Jackatbrun: Good one, Nov.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Yes, Dan

Shuzzy: Bold

TBushpurr: Good...

Jackatbrun: Okay, here's an attempt at a "poetic" paragraph. How would you

improve it?

NovelEagle: thanks Jack

Host Wrtr RGugat: Bzzzzzzzzz, it landed on his ear

TBushpurr: ;you are now readable for us older folks and others with

astigmatim and brain death, and CRS

SeabornDan: <--- makes up plenty of sound effects for my stories (comic

books)

Jackatbrun: Augusts are full of endings, summer jobs, acquaintances,

vacations... summer loves.

Shuzzy: Times New

Jackatbrun: The last die poignantly, altering the spirit.

Shuzzy: This is ridiculous.

TBushpurr: I'd take out the summer in jobs...

Shuzzy: :(

Jackatbrun: With a bit of luck, those summer passions endure, conjuring fond

memories through the seasons of our lives, encouraging us past autumn's

falling leaves and winter's tumbled dreams.

Cyncity 1: i'd lose one of the 'summers'

TBushpurr: endings, jobs, etc...summer loves.... ets

TBushpurr: yep that is what I thought

TBushpurr: Get rid of all but one of the "summers"

Host Wrtr RGugat: Enough advice, Dan?

TBushpurr: Those passions endure implies "summer"

HOST WRTR Linda: August are full of endings, vacations wane and love fades

with a hint of fall.

SeabornDan: That whole spew makes me want to slash all over the floor

NovelEagle: Augusts are full of endings, summer 

NovelEagle: jobs -- summer loves die poignantly, 

NovelEagle: altering the spirit.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Time for a test

Shuzzy: All that impassioned heat fades into the waning scirocco.

NovelEagle: With a bit of luck, summer passions 

NovelEagle: endure the fall of leaves and dreams to 

NovelEagle: warm us in the dead of winter.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Can you remember this string of numbers?

TBushpurr: Go for it Sea..go ahead and puke... then let us know how it

was......

Host Wrtr RGugat: 135135135135

Host Wrtr RGugat: how about this string:

ESP Sue Z: Sure - 135, x 4

TBushpurr: sure

Host Wrtr RGugat: 7982236402

TBushpurr: (sorry Sea..got overexcited)

TBushpurr: This is why I hate numbers!

Host Wrtr RGugat: Can you see how a pattern makes something easier to

remember?

NovelEagle: of course

Shuzzy: Yes

ESP Sue Z: Yep - that's why oral histories were in patterns.

Jackatbrun: Yup.

Host Wrtr RGugat: I do not, but there are poets who memorize their poetry

and can recite it from memory.

Cyncity 1: i thought we were supposed to avoid patterns...

TBushpurr: OBVIOUS patterns

TBushpurr: (I think)

Jackatbrun: Repetition in songs and poetry is revered, quoth the raven.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Cyndia ==  avoiding patterns is avoiding style

Shuzzy: Are we talking about poetry or prose here?

Host Wrtr RGugat: Shu -- both

TBushpurr: Probably both Shuz

ESP Sue Z: Shuzzy - yes <G>

Cyncity 1: oh, poetry...whole 'nother thing

TBushpurr: I think both...

Shuzzy: I thought we were applying poetic devices to prose.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Stories told in poetic form were easier for ancient story

tellers to remember and to tell.

LBTOBY: Guess the pattern is the rhythm of the piece...right?

NovelEagle: the use of poetic principals to create memorable prose

TBushpurr: Like a sub-plot can repeat the main plot, with variations...????

Host Wrtr RGugat: TBush -- yes -- one of dozens of ways

Host Wrtr RGugat: Anyone remember a nursery rhyme?

Host Wrtr RGugat: Jack be nimble

Shuzzy: Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall

ESP Sue Z: Several of them...

ESP Sue Z: Little bitty kids memorize them easily.

NovelEagle: like when the problem/question on page one is repeated/answered

on the final page

Host Wrtr RGugat: Many, many ways

ESP Sue Z: Echo... echo...

Host Wrtr RGugat: this is not about poetry, but rather, about style

Shuzzy: Ahh

Shuzzy: I have a feeling style isn't something you get overnight.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Using poetic principles is but one way to inject style

into your writing

Host Wrtr RGugat: Shuzzy -- the incubation period for style can be very long

Shuzzy: So it would seem

NovelEagle: it helps if you have the soul of a poet to begin with

Host Wrtr RGugat: or, you CAN contract it overnight

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: like a flu?

Shuzzy: contract it?

Host Wrtr RGugat: yes

Shuzzy: Like hire a ghost writer?

TBushpurr: RGugat..I just based a whole workshop on McClananan't Word

Painting

ESP Sue Z: I remember something about the natural rhythm "we" in America use

for speaking - iambic pentameter? or something like that?

Host Wrtr RGugat: conytract it like you contract a cold

ESP Sue Z: Shakespear used it - that's why he's an easy read.

HOST WRTR Linda: rotflol

Shuzzy: Okay.

ESP Sue Z: ShakespearE that is :)

Host Wrtr RGugat: Iambic pentameter is probably the most basic and easiest

rhythm in the English language

Host Wrtr RGugat: I ambic is the rhythm

Shuzzy: I guess maybe you could get a start by imitating someone you like.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Pentameter is the meter or length of line

ESP Sue Z: Other languages use different rhythms - there's a primitive tribe

in S. American whose speech sounds like rap...

Host Wrtr RGugat: I am opposed to imitation

Host Wrtr RGugat: Write like YOU

Host Wrtr RGugat: READ writers you like

Host Wrtr RGugat: LEARN from many

Host Wrtr RGugat: and find your own style

Host Wrtr RGugat: be it poetic or not

LBTOBY: What's the key to finding one's own voice?

Annie313B: sorry I am getting sick.. niters..

Shuzzy: Gee, bye.

Host Wrtr RGugat: TOBY  --  the key is to READ and WRITE

Shuzzy: Reading = very important

Host Wrtr RGugat: Read tons of words

NovelEagle: "The ancient island city of mansions 

NovelEagle: and gardens rests on the water like 

NovelEagle: a jade and ivory cameo, tied with 

NovelEagle: two golden-ribbon bridges to the 

NovelEagle: teeming New City on the shore," 

TBushpurr: And sometimes if you are really really stuck.... find someone

whose writing you admire... and just write what they wrote longhand......

Host Wrtr RGugat: I once heard you do not really find your way as a writer

in your first million words

TBushpurr: (you write longhand)

JFitzge886: Hello, keeds

Shuzzy: :::oh my aching fingers!:::

ESP Sue Z: I'm listening to sleet and freezing rain schussing down my window

pane.

NovelEagle: She pointed to where the fishing 

NovelEagle: fleet nestled in the near harbor.  

NovelEagle: "Like a flock of many-colored 

NovelEagle: ducks," she said.  

TBushpurr: Shuzzy...get yourself a decent Cross pen (fountain)

Shuzzy: LOL

Host Wrtr RGugat: Get many pens

Shuzzy: (Have one)

TBushpurr: Have many...lots of ink

TBushpurr: all FOUNTAIN

Host Wrtr RGugat: Take some on location

JFitzge886: I suggest Magic Markers, so you can write with your feet should

the need arise.

Host Wrtr RGugat: with paper

SeabornDan: <--- has severe arthritis in hands but still writes long hand.

NovelEagle: Machine Madness

TBushpurr: Take them all...all kinds!!!

NovelEagle: .                                         

NovelEagle: To find a key, to find a key, to story 

NovelEagle: and machine;

NovelEagle: to stumble resolutely, from shambles 

NovelEagle: into scene;

NovelEagle: .

NovelEagle: to stagger over letters, erased on 

NovelEagle: every page,

NovelEagle: from flaming imagination,  to 

NovelEagle: exasperated rage;

NovelEagle: .

NovelEagle: to finish with a manuscript that's not 

NovelEagle: entirely tripe,

NovelEagle: always use a keyboard but never 

NovelEagle: learn to type.

NovelEagle: .

NovelEagle: copyright Peggy Ullman Bell, 1997 I

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: To join our weekly mailing list send an email to the HOST

WRTR LINDA including the

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: words JOIN WRITING BASICS MEMO in the subject line.

TBushpurr: Thank you HOSTS!!!!!!

TBushpurr: Good workshop

SeabornDan: So what did we learn tonight?

TBushpurr: alliteration

TBushpurr: internal rhyme

Host Wrtr RGugat: My shoe

TBushpurr: rhyme

SeabornDan: ah so

NovelEagle: Seaborn, have you tried dictation software?

JFitzge886: I learned that life is never so precious as when you are waiting

in a particularly long line at the deli, and you

TBushpurr: repetition

JFitzge886: really only need a pound or so of corned beef, but the guy in

front of you has this long and really complex order

ESP Sue Z: How many remember this from childhood? I'm a poet and didn't know

it, but my feet show it - they're Longfellows...

TBushpurr: JF..you must live in a city!

JFitzge886: and so you end up at Denny's for reasons that are never quite

clear.

Host Wrtr RGugat: a city?  a pity

SeabornDan: Novel, no... stories come to me when I write.  No other way, not

with typing or talking into tape recorder.

Shuzzy: And hate every minute of it.

TBushpurr: I live north of a city where Denneys IS the closest you come to a

deli

Shuzzy: Denny's, that is.

Host Wrtr RGugat: My kitchen is my deli

Shuzzy: ya

Shuzzy: Best deli in the world

SeabornDan: Chic-Fil-A is my kitchen

Host Wrtr RGugat: My shoe Fits fine when a tree is my enemy.

ESP Sue Z: My kitchen is my deli-ciosa

HOST WRTR Linda: lol, the only deli near here is the pre-packaged lunch meat

counter at the grocery store.

SeabornDan: Oscar Meyer is Linda's Deli manager

Shuzzy: whatever it takes.

Host Wrtr RGugat: Thank you for your wonderful participation tonight

JFitzge886: I only eat what I can catch and kill with my bare hands. I had a

Jehovah's Witness tonight.

Shuzzy: Thank you for your thought provoking commentary.

ESP Sue Z: Thanks for the workshop - it was lively and thought-provoking!

HOST WRTR Linda: night alll

SeabornDan: What's topic for next week?

ESP Sue Z: LOL JF -- just so you don't play with your food...

Shuzzy: (MMmm, they're good.)

LBTOBY: When is the next workshop?

JFitzge886: Topic for Next Week: Does this milk smell alright to you?

ESP Sue Z: (no - I threw it out tonight :)

Host Wrtr RGugat: Dan --  Linda just left  --  it is her turn

SeabornDan: <-- can't smell, will taste it for freshness... doesn't mind it

being chunky

Shuzzy: Esp Sue. Huh?

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: Next Weds. 11PM

SeabornDan: Thanks RG

NovelEagle: just shows how old I am - when I started it was not all right to

write alright.

HOST WRTR SPKLD1: :::LOGOFF:::