"Book Doctors" folder from the Fiction message board
Subject: Book Doctors
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This is an archive of the "Book Doctors" folder from the Fiction message board, from 2/2/97 to summer of 1999.
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Subject: Book Doctor
Date: Wed, 29 January 1997 09:22 PM EST
From: ProNewsGrl
Message-id: <board-c-folder-005939f2-msg-005939ff-at-32f5f398@aol.com>
Hey Guys!
I've been round and round this World Wide Web searching for an editor who
won't step on my style, be brutal with the red pencil, stingy with
professional advice and then take my last buck.
I found her. I wanted to share the information with you. Many of you have
posted for help with editing, how to get published, agents, query letters and
book proposals all of which are very specific requirements from publishers
and editors and must be done right or you end up in the slush pile.
See the Web site at http://pages.prodigy.com/books/bookdoc.com. Carol
Henson also offers a one time free editing of your first 8 pages. She says
she wants to make sure her clients like her work first (gee that's new and
different in my experience).
Her credentials and references are listed and I was impressed. She offers
much more. I hope you'll be as pleasantly surprised as I was.
Lest any of you think otherwise, this is not a paid advertisment, but from
one friendly writer who loves the craft and appreciates the good people in
this group and all the good advice you've given me.
Smiles,
Jillanne (it must be real cuz I'm here) Kimble
Subject: Re:Book Doctor
Date: Fri, 31 January 1997 12:33 AM EST
From: MARKLitt
Message-id: <board-c-folder-005939f2-msg-0059d05e-at-32f5f398@aol.com>
I tried your web site, but AOL said it didn't exist. Did you type the address
right?
Subject: fiction writing software
Date: Sat, 08 February 1997 12:48 AM EST
From: BG43
Message-id: <19970208054800.AAA03648@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Hi,
Can anybody tell me what the advantage/disadvantage is of using a
program like writepro or Dramatica to help with your writing? Do such
programs work? What is the difference between Writepro and Dramatica?
Please e-mail me if you have any info(at BG43@aol.com)
Thanks,
BG43
Subject: Re: fiction writing software
Date: Sat, 08 February 1997 05:43 PM EST
From: ProNewsGrl
Message-id: <19970208224300.RAA08550@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Hi,
I downloaded WritePro from the web page. It's for beginning writers and
teaches you the basics of writing, which by the way, in my editing experience
I wish more would-be writers would partake! Anyway, It is very helpful in
helping you create believable characters who pop out of the page and really
keep the reader's interest. Same for plot. Fiction Master is for experienced
writers and it is excellent. Does the same except takes you through
the process of actually writing your novel! It has its own word processor
also. If you want that I can get a big discount for you. I'm not in any way
involved with Fiction Master. I just know a person who works there and can
give a big discount. I highly recommend it.
Jillanne
Subject: Re: fiction writing software
Date: Thu, 13 February 1997 09:23 PM EST
From: DEM3TRIA
Message-id: <19970214022301.VAA20984@ladder01.news.aol.com>
I would be interested in the answer to this questions as well. I have a
software program that I use, called Right Writer, that only cost about $30.00
years ago, and it helped me learn to writer much stronger. I have not checked
out any other writer's software, and was wondering if such existed.
Subject: Re: fiction writing software
Date: Fri, 14 February 1997 09:00 PM EST
From: Timewriter
Message-id: <19970215020000.VAA15734@ladder01.news.aol.com>
I took Write-pro; and it did change my style of writing. I gave a copy of it
to a friend of mine and he now has a book that has been accepted by an
editor. I think that it gave me a lot of insight into getting away from
narrative and into action and scenes and dialogue.
Subject: Re: fiction writing software
Date: Sun, 16 February 1997 01:52 AM EST
From: ProNewsGrl
Message-id: <19970216065200.BAA01099@ladder01.news.aol.com>
There is Write Pro and you can download a sample of it from their web site.
There is also Ficton Master which I highly recommend. If you need ordering
info or want more about it e-mail me.
J.
Subject: Re: fiction writing software
Date: Sun, 16 February 1997 01:54 AM EST
From: ProNewsGrl
Message-id: <19970216065400.BAA01168@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Fiction Master is the next step from Write Pro. they are both very good. I
learned so much about dialogue (using more of it to move the story along
rather than a lot of narrative), and about crucibles which is a fascinating
idea. Sol Stein moves you through the process of your novel step by step.
Subject: Re: fiction writing software
Date: Wed, 12 March 1997 07:06 PM EST
From: Tapp2
Message-id: <19970313000601.TAA27688@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Could you please send me info regarding Fiction Master?
Thanks!
Subject: Re: fiction writing software
Date: Fri, 21 March 1997 03:14 PM EST
From: Aelis10
Message-id: <19970321201400.PAA25211@ladder01.news.aol.com>
These things you recommend (Write Pro and Fiction Master) sound wonderful!
Can you please send me the web address, that I might acquire them? Thanks
very much!!
Carolyn
Subject: FICTION MASTER INFO
Date: Sun, 30 March 1997 01:57 AM EST
From: ProNewsGrl
Message-id: <19970330065701.BAA07405@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Hi all,
I don't get here much so that's why your inquiry was not answered. Here is
the info.
Call Write Pro Inc at 800-755-1124 and tell them you want Fiction Master at
the speical Writer's Club Member rate of $99. instead of $279. It is well
worth $99. It took me from nothing to getting an agent!
They also have a web page. I believe it's www.writepro.com
Sorry for the delay
Jilanne
Subject: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:24 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19970529182501.OAA15657@ladder02.news.aol.com>
I dislike the term "book doctor." It seems so flippant ... "feed your
manuscript two aspirin and call me in the morning." :-) In the field, the
term has picked up negative connotations; often, when people hear "book
doctor", they have a similar reaction to the one they'd have if you'd said
"ambulance chaser."
"Freelance editor" is the term I prefer. It's accurate. A freelance editor
doesn't have one panacea for every manuscript. Instead, a freelance editor
can help an author to improve his or her manuscript, teach valuable skills
and techniques, and offer marketing advice. It is usually a working
partnership: The editor makes suggestions, and the writer uses them as a
guide during the revision process.
Hey, maybe "book midwife" is more like it! ;-)
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services from
ALCHEMY EDITORIAL
"Dream other dreams, and better!" - Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger"
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Sun, 01 June 1997 08:52 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19970601125200.IAA01950@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Kim,
Of course your designation "Freelance Editor"is the proper one to describe
the process. How the notion of "book doctor" came along I've no idea. Like
you, I see it as "flippant," but also, anti-intellectual, anti-creative, and
worse. My immediate response to the term was, my writing is not sick.
Whether freelance or with a "house," the use of "editor," may, also, awaken
some who are "in the business" to what their task truly is.
Thanks.
GYFort
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 05 June 1997 10:15 PM EDT
From: Instyles
Message-id: <19970606021501.WAA14551@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Has anyone been referred to Edit Ink by a publisher or agent? I have by
three different people, but I'm skeptical. They charge a bundle.
BStiles
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Fri, 06 June 1997 03:29 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19970606192901.PAA21936@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<<Has anyone been referred to Edit Ink by a publisher or agent? I have by
three different people, but I'm skeptical. They charge a bundle.>>
Here's an interesting allegation about Edit Ink. I have more info about them
that I can email to you, but it adds up to the same point as this post from
misc.writing.
If you think you really do need editorial assistance, please email me, and
I'll send you my resume and references.
Good luck with your manuscript! :-)
-- Kim
-------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lee Shore Agency
From: Bob Krawetz <72060.2354@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:36:21 -0400
Message-ID: <33876D65.1C68@worldnet.att.net>
agent@writeme.com wrote:
>
> Preach it, Chuck! (:>
Ran across thr following list on the Compuserve Authors forum
(TWAUTHORS) - I see Lee Shore made the cut and thought I'd inject it
here:
***********************************************************************
Awhile back we were wondering why on earth any of the legitimate writers
and publishers would even
consider endorsing Edit Ink. Well, I think we've solved the mystery.
The following is from the Net in a
section entitled "Trouble with Literary Agents"
"I got onto Edit Ink in a rather unusual way. As the author of five
published books in six years, I got a
letter from them offering me $500 if I would endorse their service."
This notice is signed Marc Bockmon,
and he further says: "I complained to the Mystery Writers of America,
and Mr. Appel, whose credentials
appear to be predominantly bogus, was removed from membership."
The following agents/agencies have recommended the book doctors Edit
Ink:
Aardvark Literary Agents
Bill Adler of Adler and Robin Books,
Authors Literary Agency of Dallas (TX)
Avatar Literary Agency.
Brock Gannon Literary Agency in Cocoa, Florida
Elaine Davie Literary Agency
Feigen Literary Agency?Brenda Feigen Literary Agency
Literary Bridge
New Scribes Literary Agency
New Brand Agency Group
Alison J. Picard
Julie Ievleva/Ievleva Agency
Frank Weimann/Literary Group International
Woodside Literary Agency
Seymour Literary Agency
Alex Kamaroff Agency
James Allen-- Literary Agent
Ievleva Literary Agency
Southeast Literary Agency
New Scribes Literary Agency
Silver Phoenix Litetary Agency
Daniel King Associates
Deering Literary Agency
Kelly O'Donnell
Pegasus International
Lee Shore Agency
Joseph DeRogatis
International Publishing Associates
Montgomery Literary Agency, Silver Spring Maryland. Principal's name:
Marjorie Olsen
Joseph Anthony Agency, New Jersey
American Literary Agency, Robert Boyce
Publishers Associated with Edit Ink:
Amherst Press
Baldwin & Knowlton Books
Crescent Books
Discus Publishers
International Publishing Associates
Other troublesome Publishers:
McClanahan Book Co.
Commonwealth Publishing (Canada)
A good source to check reputation of agents is The National Writer's
Association.
Write to them at: 1450 South Havana Ste.424, Aurora, CO 80012
Phone: 303-751-7844
Fax: 303-751-8593
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services from
ALCHEMY EDITORIAL
"Dream other dreams, and better!" - Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger"
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Sun, 08 June 1997 10:53 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19970608145301.KAA28034@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Hi,
You've received a lengthy list re Edit Ink. I was made aware of the "problem"
with this new type of "editorial" service after I'd paid them more than I
could afford ( on my credit card.) I'm angry and ashamed of my stupidity
even as I write this. There is an agent not on the posted list. Westchester
Agency in Florida sent me to Edit Ink. Very subtle come on--suggesting they
MIGHT re-consider if I had the manuscript worked by Edit Ink. I now
realize there was no intent to follow up, expecially as Appel siggested I
re-write ten years of work that has been re-written numerous times, edited by
competent authors, including instructor with Writer's Digest Novel Writing
School and pronouncfed to be a excellent work by seeral ( one chapter was
even awarded a cash prize and reading in a regional contest.) What I lesson?
How to determine what/who is helpful is frightening difficult, today? Scams,
cheats, liars andindifference seemingly, everywhere.
Be aware and keep writing.
GYFort
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Mon, 09 June 1997 08:31 PM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970610003101.UAA08302@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Hello All,
I started this book doctor board quite awhile ago, and it didn't get much
response. Now all of a sudden there's much to say about editors. This makes
me happy in one sense and in another sense very concerned.
After years of writing and travelling the thorny road of the publishing
business I finally found some success. I, too, was taken by phony editors
and people who offered contests with reading fees of anywhere from 10. to 25.
What a great way to make a bunch of quick cash! At this point in my writing
life, as an editor, I am dedicated to helping new authors get published.
And I am enjoying much success and fulfillment as I watch brilliant
writers grow in their craft and their mss finally find the veneer of a
publisher's desk.
But, as I go about marketing in my business I too often run into writers
who are very leary of what I do and why I do it. And the distrust comes from
being swindled by companies like Edit Ink and all of the agencies who
recommend them. It's really tough to undo all of the lying, cheating and
stealing.
I was happy to hear from GYFort and Kat91 that freelance editors do have an
important role in the process of writing and publishing. Perhaps we should
get the word out that writers are much better served by finding freelance
editors to help them. I agree that the term "book doctor" sounds like your
mss has a terrible virus and it could be terminal!
My Best,
Jillanne Kimble, ed-in-chief
Writing Right
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 12 June 1997 04:44 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19970612204400.QAA06880@ladder02.news.aol.com>
GYFort says:
<<How to determine what/who is helpful is frightening difficult, today?
Scams, cheats, liars andindifference seemingly, everywhere.>>
I think it is vital to check the references of anyone with whom you consider
entrusting your money and your literary works. This includes agents,
freelance editors, and even small press publishers. Ask for references and
*check them out.* I have come across some rip-off artists who handed out
imaginary references. It's important to actually pick up the phone and speak
to satisfied customers. Ask questions. Do you feel you got your money's
worth? Was the work completed on deadline and in a professional fashion? Is
this person readily available by phone or email? Would you re-hire this
person to work on another project of yours?
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services from
ALCHEMY EDITORIAL
"Dream other dreams, and better!" - Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger"
Subject: Book Success
Date: Sun, 15 June 1997 04:46 PM EDT
From: Acappub
Message-id: <19970615204600.QAA22891@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Want to know the four esential comonents of a successful book? Click Here.
A Cappela Publishing
Subject: Re: Book Success
Date: Wed, 18 June 1997 05:37 PM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970618213701.RAA28594@ladder02.news.aol.com>
The essential components of a successful book:
#1 KNOW HOW TO SPELL!
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Wed, 18 June 1997 06:05 PM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970618220501.SAA00119@ladder02.news.aol.com>
The subject of Book Doctors seems to be a lively subject here. Many authors
declare Book Doctors frivolous, unnecessary, a waste of time and money, etc.
I am a book editor. I prefer not to use the term Book Doctor. That implies
that something is terribly wrong with your manuscript. It needs a bandage,
maybe even major surgery to perform some kind of ectomy. How an editor can
presume to make revisions on the writer's style and voice is really way
beyond me. I find it rather presumptuous that a professisonal might think
she/he can actually write the author's story better than the author
himself.
Most of the manuscripts that come across my desk are from new writers with
little or no experience in the field of publishing. So their manuscripts do
need some help. It may be grammar, spelling, punctuation. But most of the
time the manuscript needs stronger character development or more vivid
descriptions, tighter writing. In helping an author with those writing
dynamics, his style, his voice is left intact.
When I give information about my service I make the above beliefs clear from
the beginning, for having one's manuscript chopped apart is every writer's
fear.
I have gotten much of my education on fiction writing and editing from the
guru of writing, Sol Stein. He has a column here in the Writer's Club. Visit
his column and read what he has to say about book doctors and I think you
skeptics will be enlightened.
Finally, I've checked out the prices of many editors and book doctors. I was
amazed that some can charge from $4.00 per page and up. Some charge four
cents a word! That is one thing to look for when you're looking for an
editor. Are their charges in line with what the average beginning writer can
afford? Check out references. Ask about turn around time. Ask what agents
the editor works with. Does the editor care about the manuscripts and
authors she works with? Does that come through? Is the editor willing to
help you become a better writer in the process of editing your manuscript?
This makes the difference between someone who wants your money, makes a few
marks and sends you on your way. And an editor who will stick with you
through the entire process from revisions to finding an agent to represent
you, or a publisher to buy your book.
My Best,
Jillanne Kimble, Ed.
Writing Right
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 19 June 1997 03:18 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19970619191800.PAA02307@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Hi, Jillanne --
Wow, it's great to see that your views on the term "book doctor" and how to
choose a freelance editor are so similar to my own. Your posts on these
subjects are like echoes of mine. :-)
I've also checked the rates of other freelance editors; it's something I do
once or twice a year. The task has been made easier by technology. I used
to have to make a lot of phone calls, and then I was able to switch to email.
Since I became the host of the AOL Editors Forum, I can just run a survey in
the Editors Forum Newsletter.
You're right, some editors ask outrageous prices. A couple of years ago, I
came across one who charged forty-odd dollars an hour for proofreading, with
the guarantee that he'd spend a maximum of an hour on each page. He didn't
know how to spell "proofreading."
On the other hand, I frequently come across editors who don't charge enough.
These are folks who obviously have little or no editorial experience, and
they figure they can pick up some extra cash by charging for their favorite
hobby, reading. They charge so little that they earn less per hour than the
neighbor's 10-year-old gets for mowing the lawn. Sometimes, they have so
little experience that they just don't know how to make a reasonable
quote. In other cases, their rates are purposely that low, because they know
they don't have a lot of experience or ability, and they feel it is honest to
charge proportionately.
I bet you'll agree: That's a mistake. Crummy editorial work is worse than
no editorial work at all.
Most established, professional freelance editors -- the ones who have good
references and solid resumes, who have been at it for a while -- charge about
the same rate, which you can even look up in Writer's Market. Depending on
variables (less for a longer manuscript, or one the editor figures he or she
might really enjoy; more for one that needs a lot of attention, or one that
has technical, complex subject matter), the going rate for copy
editing, as an example, usually runs around $2.50 per page. Between $2.00
and $3.00 is typical. Other services, such as proofreading or critiques,
also have typical rates. I think my rates tend to be a bit on the low side,
but that's because I tend to edit long manuscripts, which are more
cost-effective projects for an editor, and I quote a flat fee appropriate for
each project, rather than a per-page or hourly rate.
BTW, Jillanne, I don't think you're a member of the Editors Forum. Just drop
me an email if you'd like to join us. :-)
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services from
ALCHEMY EDITORIAL
"Dream other dreams, and better!" - Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger"
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Tue, 24 June 1997 05:19 PM EDT
From: CINCYKYDD
Message-id: <19970624211901.RAA24164@ladder02.news.aol.com>
I hav just completed my first novel. Need some edit work and a good
colobrator. Let me know if someone can help.
tHANKS
CINCYKYDD
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Sun, 29 June 1997 10:53 PM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970630025300.WAA18541@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Hi,
I am a freelance editor. As part of my services I offer to refer you to
one of the several agents I work with in NY and NJ. I have the most
affordable prices on the internet. I'd like to read a sample of what you
have and then see if we can work together!
My Best,
Jillanne Kimble, Ed
Writing Right
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Mon, 30 June 1997 08:18 PM EDT
From: AnnieHawk
Message-id: <19970701001800.UAA17773@ladder02.news.aol.com>
You'd better check out the spelling of *collaborator* or you'll be roadkill
for all passing "editors."
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Tue, 01 July 1997 01:54 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19970701175501.NAA09475@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Hi, CINCYKYDD --
Congratulations! How long did it take to write your novel? Is it long?
What sort of editorial work do you think it needs? There are a lot of great
resources available for writers who need a hand polishing their manuscripts,
like writer's workshop groups (even online in the AOL Writers Club), the WC
mentor program, and plenty of freelance editors who can edit your work for
you. If you need a hand getting hooked up with someone who can edit
your work, if you have any specific questions I might be able to answer, or
if you think you might want to work with a professional editor, just drop me
an email.
-- Kim
<<I hav just completed my first novel. Need some edit work and a good
colobrator. Let me know if someone can help.
tHANKS
CINCYKYDD>>
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services from
ALCHEMY EDITORIAL
"Dream other dreams, and better!" - Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger"
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Wed, 02 July 1997 10:49 PM EDT
From: TFCarp
Message-id: <19970703024900.WAA22984@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Hey Cincykydd,
Bravo to you! Don't mind the tutorial spelling advice. Not all of us are
wunderkind spellers. Be proud. Follow your instincts about editing and keep
an open mind to the boards and the experiences of fellow writers and you
won't end up 'road kill'.
Best Wishes to you and your new career!
April
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 03 July 1997 09:02 PM EDT
From: Amanda1755
Message-id: <19970704010201.VAA26292@ladder02.news.aol.com>
My, my....book doctors are a bit touchy....It’s hard for them to digest the
fact that some of us (maybe even a lot of us) have been published for profit
without their attention. There are other ways to find excellent critiquing
for a manuscript, which don’t involve cash, cash, and more cash. The
assertion that “the first time through you need...a book doctor”..is
ridiculous. Three of the five members of my critique group have contracts
from
publishers...and we were all first time novelists at the outset.
Think before you spend.
Amanda
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Tue, 08 July 1997 05:17 PM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970708211701.RAA15633@ladder01.news.aol.com>
I don't think "book doctors" are a bit touchy at all! First, three out five
writers who managed to get published without the help of a freelance editor
is not "many." There are writers who are gifted and do not need the help of
an editor beforehand. I will be the first one to admit that. And that is
why my services offer the option of skipping the editorial process, if the
mss is that good, and going straight to the querying process to
one of the agents I work with.
I read hundreds of manuscripts. I can safely say that five out of one
hundred manuscripts are written so well they do not need any help. And for
those clients, I send them to an agent. No money involved until the book
sells.
So, to summarize: if your book is without editorial fault, then it's to the
agent we go! No money spent. If your book is needing revisions and polish,
then the money - a paultry $1.00 per page - is well spent if it will get your
manuscript upon the veneer of an agent's desk!
Too many blanket statements are made here. There are editors who will take
your money and your pocket book with it. And then there are freelance
editors who are sensitive to the financial hardship such services can cause.
I have made arrangements with many of my clients so that they may be able to
take advantage of a good editor and being put in touch with an agent, without
financial hardship. We aren't all a bunch of moneymongers.
It does not have to cost a fortune. Shop around. But, most importantly, be
willing to accept the fact that your manuscript may need the professional
services of a freelance editor. Revisions are a part of the writing life.
And editorial services, if they are complete, means much more than mere
critiquing. You can ask fifty people what they think of your story and you
will get fifty different opinions. That is critiquing. That does not put
polish on your story. Do what you have to do to get your book published, but
be smart and shop around. There are editors out there who care more about
you and your book than about money. It's a partnership of sorts. Writers
need affordable editing, and editors need to make a living. Both are
possible.
Warm Smiles,
Jillanne Kimble, Ed
Writing Right
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 10 July 1997 08:48 AM EDT
From: GILJOHN
Message-id: <19970710124800.IAA12958@ladder01.news.aol.com>
I've been keeping up with this thread for a while now, keeping quiet and
biting my tongue (fingers?). I can't do it anymore. Far too many book
doctors are rip-off artists. Perhaps others are not. Unfortunately, it's
hard to know the difference before it's too late.
Some people have an innate sense for how to tell a story. They read a lot,
and absorb much of what they read. They have a natural sense for the
language and for dialogue, and their writing style is smooth and readable.
These people will be published with or without the help of a freelance
editor. On the other end of the writing spectrum, there are the people who
have a decent idea for a story, but who never paid attention to grammar
lessons
in English class and don't have any sense for how to structure a story. This
latter group needs formal training. They need to go to school.
Unfortunately, many of them turn to a "book doctor," who is anxious for the
business and are more than willing to yank dollar bills through the writer's
nose for months, or even years. At the end of the day, though, these writers
are merely poorer for the effort -- neither published nor better-educated.
Book doctors tupically promise quick access to an agent. Sorry, but I don't
believe it. Agents are out there for everyone. They make their living by
discovering new authors and by getting them published. Any agent who depends
upon a book doctor -- who, by definition deals exclusively with less talented
writers -- probably does not have the horsepower in NYC to accomplish many of
the agenting tasks that more experienced agents can do in their
sleep.
Bottom line, there is no quick fix here. If a writer needs remedial
training, she should go back to school. If she wants input from others, she
should join a writing group. Writing is damn hard work. It's a learned
skill; perfected only by writing hundreds of thousands of bad sentences,
which, over time, become better. To spend tens or hundreds or thousands of
dollars with a stranger, in hopes of short-circuiting this system of natural
selection is, I believe, short-sighted and foolish.
-- John Gilstrap (who made it happen the old-fashioned way)
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 10 July 1997 10:55 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19970710145501.KAA18666@ladder01.news.aol.com>
JillAnne,
I understand and agree with you presentation. My question is, when does a
writer know when they have been well and thoroughly edited? (1) I paid an
author-instructor from a reputable editing service a reasonable price for an
edit. I accepted and liked the advice given. (2) Prior to this edit another
editor-friend with 30 years experience in three national publishing houses
had done an edit. (3) Portions of the manuscript had been edited by
authors-instructors in on-going workshops over six years. One chapter had won
an award-cash and reading.
then, along comes an agent who alludes to acceptance IF. Now out of more than
twice the money spent for, what I think, is a creditable edit, I'm
burned-scared.
Incidently, I now have an agent--who seems to be foot dragging, although told
me, my work is expceted to be picked up in "the first group"(???) Also, a
publisher, last week, wants to see the works, but takes only agented. I've
tried via two e-mails to get my agent to get on the stick. So,no "sour
grapes" but a lot of wondering just who knows what and how can a writer know?
Thanks for your continual intelligence.
GYFort
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 10 July 1997 10:57 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19970710145701.KAA15241@ladder02.news.aol.com>
John, I read you loud and broke.
GYFort
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Thu, 10 July 1997 08:35 PM EDT
From: WriteBeth
Message-id: <19970711003500.UAA21792@ladder02.news.aol.com>
John,
Glad you took those fingers out of your mouth. Excellent post.
Beth
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Fri, 11 July 1997 12:35 AM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970711043500.AAA12800@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Dear John,
If you'd read my post, I think you wouldn't have made the assertions you
did. I resent being called a book doctor who is in this for the money; a poor
writer eager to make a buck off other poor writers. I've explained, and so
has Kat91, the differences between a freelance editor and book doctors.
I don't understand the closed minded, rigid view, Sir. I've helped many
people become published. Many of my clients come to me after receiving
rejections enough to paper a wall. They tell me that agents won't take them
or they reject them. In looking further, it's usually the query or synopsis
letter that is lacking in enough intrigue to interest the agent. Other times,
the writer is not "a poor writer," but needs some help in some areas.
For some people it's difficult to be objective and see the flaws and correct
them. Forgive us all for not having the obvious gift that you do. But it's
not a reason to be so insulting to those of us who make an honest living at
freelance editing. If I were in this for the money, I'd be charging far more
than I do. I care about my client's success.
As for the agents: I've worked with these particular agents for a long
time. They trust my judgement and that opens doors for writers with
unsolicited manuscripts. There are many ways to make a stew. Diversity is
not a crime, nor does it mark something as being inadequate next to other
ways of doing things.
Smiles,
Jillanne Kimble
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Fri, 11 July 1997 12:45 AM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970711044501.AAA13478@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Dear GYFort,
I always appreciate your sensibility and the way you can accept divers ways
of doing things.
How can one know? Well, you can't. You know only when an agent tells you
that XYZ Publishing house has bought your book. How can you know about an
editor? You ask for references. You ask how the editor edits. You request
a sample. When the editor hands you over to an agent and he rejects your
mss, ask why. I ask the agents I work with and they tell me because we have
a working relationship. And just because that agent doesn't like
your story, there's a million more. As long as my client can keep up, I'm
willing. And it doesn't cost you another dime. Why? Because I'm sick and
tired of these moneymongers making a bad name for the honest and sincere of
us.
The whole business is a crap shoot. Only 2% make it. Everyone knows this.
But when writing is in your blood, you just can't give it up. Somehow, I
think you know in your heart when your book is as good as you can make it.
There are no guarantees in this business. But I don't think you should keep
shelling out money on editors. One thorough edit is enough. And if your
agent is dragging, fire him and go on to another.
I don't know if this helps. The bottom line is not encouraging. There
are no guarantees, but you cannot give up.
Smiles,
Jillanne Kimble
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Fri, 11 July 1997 12:48 AM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970711044800.AAA10102@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Not really. It was a post calling "foul play" and grouping all of us into
one category. No one, no matter what group they are a part of, appreciate
that.
We suffer for the people who are dishonest and don't care. Not fair.
Jillanne
Subject: No Short-cuts
Date: Fri, 11 July 1997 08:50 AM EDT
From: GILJOHN
Message-id: <19970711125001.IAA28613@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Jilanne,
I don't think I ever accused YOU of anything. In fact, I believe I said in
my post that some book doctors -- freelance editors, whatever you'd prefer --
are, indeed honest. For the sake of argument, I'll accept that you are one
of them. But I do so on faith alone -- because you told me so.
The point of my post remains unchanged and unchallenged. At the end of the
day, it is impossible to short-circuit the need for craftsmen to perfect
their craft through practice. Certainly, even the best writers need help to
see the forest through the trees; to see the flaws in plotting and structure
that may not be obvious to them. I also believe that, all else being equal,
writing groups are cheaper and writing classes are more effective
routes to take.
John
Subject: Re: No Short-cuts
Date: Sat, 12 July 1997 01:14 AM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970712051400.BAA21825@ladder02.news.aol.com>
John,
Everyone wants to publish a book. It seems easy to sit at the keyboard
and just type out words that sound good to the writer. It's easy to be
pleased with yourself.
It is not easy to write a book that a million readers want and can't put
down once they start. Only 2% of the people who write books make it to the
veneer of publisher's desk. Two percent! The 98% blame the editors, the
publishers, the agents for a multitude of reasons as to why their book is not
among the published. Rarely do I hear a writer say, "Well, I guess I just
don't have what it takes. This is not my forte." Not everyone can
write a book great enough to be published. And what's wrong with that? I
can't draw my way out of a simple circle. It's not my forte. So we move on
and learn what it is we are good at and do that.
My point is, everyone wants to be published. Only 2% are that good. The
rest, for reasons that must be personal, must keep trying. They aren't
patient enough to take a class. That takes too long. Or they just don't get
it. So they go to an editor and get it fixed up. I've done that three times
now, and the books are before a publisher.
For some, the art of writing is a gift. For some, the art of writing can
be accomplished, but they need help. Others, are determined but will never
make it.
One more thing: for the life of me, I cannot imagine anyone handing over
$1,000 to anyone to get a book published! Self publishing is an exception,
of course. There are so many other options that cost from nothing to a
pittance. It's a matter of educating yourself.
Jillanne
Subject: Re: No Short-cuts
Date: Wed, 16 July 1997 09:07 PM EDT
From: Amanda1755
Message-id: <19970717010701.VAA27812@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Is this a tautology?
Jillanne states in an earlier post: "Three out of five writers who managed
to get published without the help of a freelance editor is not 'many.' "
(This post referred to members of one single critique group who were
published for profit with no editorial assistance.)
Jillanne states in a later post: "The whole business is a crap shoot. Only
2% make it. Everyone knows this." and still later, "Only 2% of the people
who write books make it to the veneer of publisher's desk." (sic)
Even though math is not my strong point, it seems to me that 60% is far
better than 2%. Perhaps GILJOHN is correct, and authors immeasurabley improve
their odds of publication by refining their craft through critique groups,
advanced coursework, and long term dedication to writing.
Amanda
Subject: Re: No Short-cuts
Date: Thu, 17 July 1997 02:40 AM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970717064000.CAA23047@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Amanda,
AGREED! Did you read the part of my post that stated that new writers are
very impatient creatures? It takes years to learn the art of writing. Most
writers (new) do not want to take the time and hard work. Still, their
writing is good and they have a great desire. I do much more than mere
editing. I help writers develop.
Jillanne
Subject: ProEditGrl
Date: Thu, 17 July 1997 08:21 PM EDT
From: Ferret686
Message-id: <19970718002100.UAA10949@ladder01.news.aol.com>
This post appeared on FICTION WRITING: FOUND AGENT, NOW WHAT. It is worth
reading.
Subj: ProEditGrl
Date: 17 Jul 1997 12:40:36 EDT
From: James812
Message-ID: <19970717164000.MAA09965@ladder02.news.aol.com>
For some time now I’ve been concerned with the postings of Jillanne Kimble
(ProEditGrl). With over 50 advertisements on these boards soliciting writers
to pay for her editing services, I have begun to agree with Shea that these
postings “borders on (the) criminal” in the fact that she may be
misrepresenting herself and her professional qualifications. (I have
contacted the Ohio State Attorney’s
office to verify that her business Writing Right, Inc. is indeed incorporated
in that state and I’m waiting for their response.)
Jillanne first appeared in late January of this year when she opened the
Book Doctor folder with an advertisement for her “editor” Carol Henson, which
set her agenda (see her posting of 1/25/97). According to Jillanne, she
lived in California for 40 years and writes that the state has a “socialistic
mind set” (2/27/97). Her profile indicates that she is now living in
Zanesville, Ohio. While she holds no degrees from a college, she has
attended many universities (4/28/97). On Feb. 20, she claims that she had
four chapters of her novel done and that her editor was finding her a
publisher or agent. Then three months later she posts, “I wrote a novel,
soon to be published” (5/2/97). When she became a writer seems to be in
dispute. First she states that she has been writing “since the 6th grade”
(4/28/97). Then she claims that she’s “been writing since 1990” (5/2/97).
And
now most recently she’s been writing since 1992. (7/12/97) After many
requests, she has yet to list any of her published works though her ads claim
that she is a “published author.”
Early in February, as ProNewsGrl, Jillanne is “doing pro bono editing”
(2/13/97). On April 5, she formally announces, with a subject heading
“Editor Who Wants to Help You,” that she is a “professional editor” and is
taking on new clients, even suggesting that she can find a publisher or agent
for new writers. On April 11, Jillanne reinvents herself as ProEditGrl with
the same ad. Her reason for changing her name is an “undetermined
glitch” in her AOL account. 15 days later, she writes that her business
Writing Right has “sent several brand new authors to publishers and had
publishers send me authors who needed revisions made.” (4/26/97) Two days
later she now has “about eight clients” and is associated with a nameless New
York agent (4/28/97). By May 2, she claims that she has many “associates
(agents) representing her clients.” Her success as an editor increases
tremendously for on May 9 she writes, “I recently sent two (of her clients)
to an agent and both have been picked up by a publisher.” In soliciting for
clients, Jillanne writes “I send you ms, with your permission of course, to
one of the agents I work with closely.” (5/9/97) What new writer wouldn’t
want to send her money with such proclamations as these?
Who is Jillanne Kimble? The answer might be found in an odd posting she did
on another board in which she writes, “I’m a paralegal in training at Ohio
State....I can’t wait to get into a law office and get to work.” (5/24/97)
For a chilling side to Jillanne, see her harassing, homophobic postings in
the Gay Writers folder.
In regards to editors, Jillanne writes herself that “there are lots out
there who will scam you for every penny they can get” (2/8/97). I just hope
that she is not one of them. With the amount of solicitations she does on
these boards, I’m beginning to think we should start a new folder about her
much like the Edit, Inc. Alert folder.
Jim
Subject: Re: ProEditGrl
Date: Fri, 18 July 1997 12:59 AM EDT
From: TheTightwd
Message-id: <19970718045900.AAA25119@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Just four words for ProEditGrl: The gig is up.
Interested parties should read the posts from the past week or so in the
"Found Agent, Now What?" section. Some very enlightening stuff. And some
incredibly defensive responses from ProEditGrl, who completely refused all
requests to give a list of her published works. It was requested because
she's told the boards many times that she's a "published author."
Lisa
Subject: MANUSCRIPTS WANTED
Date: Thu, 24 July 1997 07:43 PM EDT
From: CHUDO2
Message-id: <19970724234301.TAA25613@ladder02.news.aol.com>
LITERARY CONSULTANTS is a New York based agency. We specialize in
editing/agenting saleable manuscripts. No gore, erotica, or weird plots. I'd
like to see quality writing and plots. If you have such, e-mail Chudo2 with a
brief synopsis and bio.
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Wed, 30 July 1997 03:03 AM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19970730070300.DAA21508@ladder01.news.aol.com>
It's true that hiring a freelance editor can cost more than taking a writing
class or joining a workshop. There's a good reason for this. A freelance
editor usually puts in a lot more time and attention when working on a
manuscript than you could ever expect from an instructor in a writing class.
An experienced freelance editor will do a better job than a writer's peers in
a workshop.
I used to figure skate. The group lessons were a good start, but the
instructor only had so much time for each student. The class moved at the
learning rate of the slowest student. Other skaters at the rink gave me a
lot of pointers, but even if they could do certain maneuvers themselves, it
didn't mean they were able to explain them to me! Eventually, I hired a
private instructor. He asked me about my goals, watched me skate, and then
told
me what needed work. He gave me his complete attention and the full benefit
of his experience. Not only was he a wonderful skater, but he had a talent
for teaching. He was able to tell me what I was doing wrong, how to improve
those skills, and he taught me new skills. He also kept me from learning bad
habits. No group lessons or pointers from other amature skaters could
compare!
Although a freelance editor can do the editorial equivalent of emergency
surgery -- pushing around commas and repairing awkward phrasing -- there's a
lot more to the job. Hiring a freelance editor is like hiring a teacher for
private lessons. It's more efficient than classes or a workshop, and more
effective.
Yes, I agree that it's best for a writer to learn to edit his or her own work
... though it's always beneficial to have someone else do the final proofing.
However, what if a writer has already completed a manuscript and doesn't want
to write it off as part of the learning process? Why do that if, with some
assistance, that manuscript can be made marketable? There's a lot of time
and effort invested in a novel!
Further, how is a writer supposed to learn? Classes and workshops are
valuable, but another way to learn to write is with the help of a freelance
editor.
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services from
ALCHEMY EDITORIAL
"Dream other dreams, and better!" - Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger"
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Wed, 30 July 1997 12:30 PM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19970730163001.MAA21883@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Good information, Kim. I've done, workshops and hired an "instructor." We
never used the word editor, certainly not "book doctor" (2 aspirin and don't
call me on the morning?) He charged a reasonable sum. Our communication,
across distance, was good, and we developed a rapport that continues.
The problem discussed here has been the proliferation of questionable talent
and tactics with the apparent intent of getting the biggest bucks for the
littlest assistance--and no more hope of publication than before.
GYFort
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Wed, 30 July 1997 08:23 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19970731002300.UAA23100@ladder02.news.aol.com>
GYFort wrote:
<<Good information, Kim. I've done, workshops and hired an "instructor." We
never used the word editor, certainly not "book doctor" (2 aspirin and don't
call me on the morning?) He charged a reasonable sum. Our communication,
across distance, was good, and we developed a rapport that continues.>>
I'm glad to hear that you've found a good match, GYFort. Finding a
knowledgable instructor is hard; finding the right one for you is even more
difficult.
I have already posted my thoughts on the term "book doctor" -- I agree with
you. However, I would apply the term "editor" to anyone who copy edits or
proofreads, whether or not that person also critiques manuscripts,
ghostwrites, or teaches.
<<The problem discussed here has been the proliferation of questionable
talent and tactics with the apparent intent of getting the biggest bucks for
the littlest assistance--and no more hope of publication than before.>>
There are shady auto mechanics, overbilling lawyers, and unqualified
therapists. It's the same in every service-oriented profession. When I
started the Editors Forum, I thought about this a lot. In part, I hoped that
it would be a forum in which writers would be able to ask questions about
what to expect from freelance editors and how to sort the good from the
crooked and inept; I hoped it would help to educate fledgling freelance
editors
before they made mistakes that would reflect negatively on the profession
(and before they did poor work for innocent writers).
I don't know what else would be feasible -- perhaps a required certification
process for freelance editors? That would be quite an undertaking!
Certification doesn't keep all of the crooks and fumblers out of other
professions, anyway, so I don't imagine it would help in this one.
My best advice on the subject: Caveat emptor! Keep reminding everyone to
get and check references! :-)
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services from
ALCHEMY EDITORIAL
"Dream other dreams, and better!" - Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger"
Subject: Re: MANUSCRIPTS WANTED
Date: Sat, 09 August 1997 05:08 PM EDT
From: ProEditGrl
Message-id: <19970809210800.RAA09534@ladder01.news.aol.com>
I am a literary editor who gives me clients agent referrals after the
revision process is complete. Would you please send me, by personal e-mail,
your guidelines for submission?
Thank you!
Jillanne Kimble, Ed
Writing Right Literary Services
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Sat, 16 August 1997 09:50 PM EDT
From: JoeRioux
Message-id: <19970817015000.VAA11137@ladder02.news.aol.com>
I recently attended a writing conference put on by Willamette Writer's
(http://www.teleport.com/~wilwrite) as their office manager. Before the
conference they offered inexpensive ($30) all day work shops that helped
writers work through writing their query letter, synopsis, and how to pitch
to an agent/editor. The conference also had an "editing" room where a
professional editor read query letters and synopsis and offered feedback.
Folks who
are feeling isolated and in need of some advice might consider approaching
some of the other writing groups in their areas that hold conferences. It
can also be a way to meet agents and editors in a more relaxed environment.
Bill Johnson
Essays on the Craft of Dramatic Writing!
http://www.teleport.com/~bjscript/index.htm
Subject: Re: "Book doctor" vs. "Freelance Editor"
Date: Mon, 18 August 1997 09:46 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19970818134601.JAA22825@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Bill,
Very sensible--and inexpensive--suggestion.
Here's hoping it proves fruitful. Here in NC where writing is respected there
are frequent inexpensive and worhtwhile options. the North Carolina Writers'
Network offers such.
GYFort
Subject: Need help with your writing?
Date: Wed, 20 August 1997 01:52 PM EDT
From: OSS Man
Message-id: <19970820175200.NAA17631@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Do It Write
Professional editing, revising, ghosting, manuscript evaluations, critiques
by a published author. Personal attention - advice from one writer to
another. I handle any genre. Check out my web page
(http://www.toptown.com/office/ckclarke) to see my personal profile and some
samples of my work. Snail mail to Chandra Clarke, 4 Sherman St. Thamesville,
ON NOP 2KO Canada or email to
kentwood@ciaccess.com
for more information. I look forward to hearing from you!
Subject: Wirters Digest Criticism Service?
Date: Sun, 24 August 1997 11:22 AM EDT
From: Victor5555
Message-id: <19970824152201.LAA01034@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Does anyone have any experience with the Writer's Digest School Critique
Service? I'd like to know if editors provide line-by-line corrections or
just a general critique of a work. I have a completed novel, and have been
approached by Edit Ink, which will be glad to edit my work for $4 a page (a
special offer! Usually they charge $6 a page), a total of nearly $1,500.
My sincere thanks to all those who posted the details of their dealings with
Edit Ink on this board.
Victor De Grande
Subject: PITTSBURGH
Date: Fri, 29 August 1997 04:05 PM EDT
From: Llchewning
Message-id: <19970829200600.QAA16133@ladder01.news.aol.com>
FICTION & MEMOIR WRITING WORKSHOP BEGINS 10-02-97 IN SHADYSIDE/BLOOMFIELD
AREA. ALL LEVELS OF WRITERS WELCOME. FOR INFO, CALL 412-401-5622, OR
E-MAIL.
Subject: Re: Wirters Digest Criticism Service?
Date: Sat, 30 August 1997 10:49 AM EDT
From: EMKYLE28
Message-id: <19970830145001.KAA22157@ladder02.news.aol.com>
From reading all the other boards I would advise you not to. But you may
contact this web site for more information. 4.00 a page is very expensive.
going rate listed in Writers Market
is a 1.00 a page for non tech book.
The site to contact:HTTP://USERS.LANMINDS.COM/~PHERIN28
PLEASE USE THE LINKS AND FIND OUT ALL INFORMATION FROM THE WRITERS
CONNECTION. IF YOU CAN NOT FIND ANYTHING FROM THE ADDRESS LISTED ABOVE
PRIVATELY E MAIL ME SO I CAN HELP YOU WITH FINDING IT. You will be surprise
of what you find there.
Subject: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Sat, 27 September 1997 06:57 AM EDT
From: M J Ruben
Message-id: <19970927105701.GAA06710@ladder01.news.aol.com>
*************************************
*GET YOUR MANUSCRIPT PUBLISHED TODAY!*
*************************************
You've finished the hardest part.
You've written the manuscript.
Now let's get a publisher to buy it.
All you need is a highly successful SUBMISSION PACKAGE.
SUBMISSION PACKAGES are what publishers want.
Not sure what that is? It's more than an inquiry letter. And, it does not
involve any of your book chapters. Not at first. What's more, a SUBMISSION
PACKAGE rapidly catches the eye of busy publishers. You WILL get a response.
Get a SUBMISSION PACKAGE and beat the competition. Interested in how? Rush a
reply to mjruben@aol.com for more details. Or fax us a request at
517-349-1823.
Best Impressions International Incorporated
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Mon, 29 September 1997 06:03 AM EDT
From: JamesAB5
Message-id: <19970929100301.GAA13182@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<<Best Impressions International Incorporated>>
How wonderfully ironic.
Best,
Jim
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Tue, 30 September 1997 02:14 PM EDT
From: Dodger24
Message-id: <19970930181401.OAA01692@ladder02.news.aol.com>
LOL Jim!
And silly me, here I thought what publishers ***really*** wanted was QUALITY
material! Guess I was wrong <giggle>.
Shaking her head,
Just another writer in the trenches,
Kimberly
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Thu, 02 October 1997 08:19 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19971002121901.IAA25090@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Kimberly,
You're not "wrong." something else is really out of focus. Motive, intent and
integrity, perhaps?
GYFort
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Thu, 09 October 1997 11:43 AM EDT
From: JeanF52015
Message-id: <19971009154300.LAA14582@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Tee-Hee
J.
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Wed, 15 October 1997 08:46 AM EDT
From: DanWalsh
Message-id: <19971015124601.IAA07113@ladder02.news.aol.com>
I might seem like a stick in the mud here, or maybe I just don't understand
the full intent of your glee. But are you guys saying there's no place for
book doctors? I've had some credible correspondence from a bestselling
author who said he spent about $800 on a good one and netted a $450,000 deal
on his first book. He said no way the book would have gotten to that level
without the input he
got from this individual.
I've also read most of the responses from agents in Jeff Herman's writers
guide, not to mention having talked with about a half-dozen over the last
year. The better ones can get 75 to 100 queries a week, the best way more
than that. The ONLY thing they pay attention to at that early stage is the
quality of the query presentation. They're not ever going to read the
synopsis and sample chapters if the query letter doesn't grab them. It's
just a
question of time, not how well-written the actual manuscript might be.
Stands to reason then, that a newbie might work just as hard at "playing the
game" as he/she did writing the book. If you've got to put on a fancy suit,
tie, and top hat for a good first impression, I'd go get me one. We all
know, for us, it's about the book and the love of writing good material.
I think a writer should be able to put together a good query presentation
without hiring a book doctor, but I wouldn't knock it for those who are
sending out 45 and getting 45 SASE's back.
Just a writer myself,
Dan
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Wed, 15 October 1997 05:13 PM EDT
From: JamesAB5
Message-id: <19971015211301.RAA09385@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<<I might seem like a stick in the mud here, or maybe I just don't understand
the full intent of your glee. But are you guys saying there's no place for
book doctors? I've had some credible correspondence from a bestselling
author who said he spent about $800 on a good one and netted a $450,000 deal
on his first book. He said no way the book would have gotten to that level
without the input he got from this
individual.>>
Dan,
You make some good points. There is a place for good editorial services, but
it's really important to keep their impact in perspective. The above is an
anomaly by any standards.
<<I've also read most of the responses from agents in Jeff Herman's writers
guide, not to mention having talked with about a half-dozen over the last
year. The better ones can get 75 to 100 queries a week, the best way more
than that. The ONLY thing they pay attention to at that early stage is the
quality of the query presentation. They're not ever going to read the
synopsis and sample chapters if the query letter doesn't grab them. It's
just a
question of time, not how well-written the actual manuscript might be.
Stands to reason then, that a newbie might work just as hard at "playing the
game" as he/she did writing the book. If you've got to put on a fancy suit,
tie, and top hat for a good first impression, I'd go get me one. We all
know, for us, it's about the book and the love of writing good material.>>
Yes, and *sometimes* the extra polish can make a real difference. Most of
the time, it really is the character of the individual and the quality of the
work that counts above all else.
<<I think a writer should be able to put together a good query presentation
without hiring a book doctor, but I wouldn't knock it for those who are
sending out 45 and getting 45 SASE's back.>>
I wouldn't, but that's a personal choice, and I try not to impose that on
other people. There are a couple of important considerations before taking
this route, though.
1). It's REALLY difficult to find a *good* editor/editorial service. My
impression is that far more than half of the editors you'll find advertising
in places like Writers Digest are of questionable quality. Even after a
couple of years snooping around various writer's boards online, I *still*
don't have a single positve reference I can recall off hand. And at this
point, I would only approach an editor if I had a glowing recommendation from
somebody I know and trust.
There are just so many sharks in the water that the editors who are good and
reputable get covered in the same stink. It's really unfortunate, but true.
Maybe Kat91 (one of the good guys <g>) will drop by and tell us how difficult
it is to be mistrusted even before she opens her mouth.
2). Even when you find a good editor, the investment is an iffy proposition
at best. If the 99% of mss that get rejected were run through an editor, 99%
of those would *still* be rejected out of hand. There's are many, many more
factors to a mss' chances at selling than just the quality of prose and story
logic.
A writer is much better off trying to learn the lessons of creating a
polished ms on his/her own. Getting help is often a part of this, but
writing books, classes at local colleges, writing groups, etc. are probably
more cost-effective. If a writer has received 45 rejections from agents
publishers, but doesn't have a second, *better* book in hand by then (using
lessons learned from the experience of the first book), then there is
probably little
hope of success anyway. That's a cruel viewpoint, but pretty close to
truth.
Most writers' *first* books are often the 4th or 5th written. I myself am
writing my first novel and have very little expectation of selling it. I'm
going to give it everything I have, but I won't be disappointed if that's not
enough, because I'll take that experience into the second, and so on.
Writing is a long-term game.
Finally, there's a danger of using an editor as a crutch. If somebody
decides to go that route, it should be with the understanding that it's to
*learn* those last few skills it takes to be a fully professional and
competant writer. In this case, you really need to find an editor who is
willing to do some followup work regarding questions and opinions you don't
understand from the original edit. It should be a teaching relationship, not
just a
repair job.
There is far too much competition out there, and if I can't finally learn
what I need to hand ready-to-go mss to publishers, then somebody else will.
Best,
Jim Bailey
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Wed, 15 October 1997 09:53 PM EDT
From: Jay is all
Message-id: <19971016015301.VAA06110@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Dan:
The real reason for this folder is an outgrowth of the Edit-Ink flap, and
those who pretend to be agents while fleecing the unsuspecting through
reading fees and recommendation to unqualified book doctors.
Most new writers reach a point where they say, If only a professional
would help me a tidy it up, and show me what I did wrong, I could sell this
thing--and be a better writer, too. This leaves them vulnerable to those who
would use those hopes and dreams for their own enrichment--without providing
the service they claim to sell. The back pages of Writers Digest are loaded
with them (and I can't understand why they permit it) In reality, if
you need a book doctor you need writing lessons a lot more.
But editors are another story, and are a necessity because no matter how
many times you may read and re-read a piece you see what you expect to see,
and for non-fiction there is no substitute for a good editor. The only
question is to pay or not to pay. If you can get in a critique group
(hopefully with people who write better than you), that's the best solution.
I emerged from a recent critique session battered and bleeding, and with over
one-thousand words torn from my heart and my chapter. And though I dearly
loved that prose I had not noticed that it was five pages of back-story that
the reader simply didn't need, and for which I brought all action to
dead-stop.
If you can't find a critique group, and you have no one competent who can
be pressed into service, try an editor. Have them do a chapter or two,
that's certainly not very expensive. Then, if you like their work...
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Thu, 16 October 1997 08:14 AM EDT
From: GILJOHN
Message-id: <19971016121401.IAA07264@ladder01.news.aol.com>
I've been watching this debate quietly for quite some time, and I've
hesitated to jump in, just because emotions seem to run so high. Well, here
goes...
I think Dan's observations are right on the money. Most unknown authors are
rejected with their synopses and sample chapters never even being read. The
query letter is king. But this doesn't address the heart of the book
doctoring business. It's been my experience, having read a number of
"polished" manuscripts from aspiring authors, that most writers just don't
"get it". There is a flow and a feel to professional fiction that rarely
comes
naturally. Not that many people don't come close, mind you, but in this
competitive market for commercial fiction, close just doesn't cut it. People
need help.
I know this from personal experience. Now, my "book doctor" happens to be a
close personal friend, who has the courage to be bluntly honest with me. If
a scene doesn't work, she tells me so. She doesn't worry about hurting my
feelings, because this is business, and feelings are irrelevant. I tell
anyone who wants to listen that without her advice and counselling -- she
still reads everything I write -- I never would have been published.
On the success of my books, she decided to hang out her shingle as a book
doctor-for-pay. Not cheap by any standard, but in my not-so-humble opinion,
the very best in the business.
Here's what she got for her effort: writers who were furious at her for
telling them that they have a long way to go before being publishable;
writers who wanted "free samples" of her editing skills (something for
nothing); writers who would call her at six in the morning or eleven at night
because the muse had smacked them, and they wanted to bounce some ideas off
of her; writers who would argue with her editorial advice, chastizing her for
being
too dense to see what they "meant to say." It was a nightmare! Certainly
not worth the mere $60 an hour she was charging for her efforts. So, now,
she's back to one client -- me. And she does it for love, not for money.
But then, I treat her like the professional that she is.
Struggling writers need to make a decision: Do they want to be professionals
or do they want to be amateurs? The difference is not a paycheck; the
difference is attitude. If you want to stay the course all alone, waiting
for the world to wake up to your talent, bring a sleeping bag 'cause it will
be a while. If, on the other hand, you're willing to invest in your future
-- again, I don't just mean monetarily -- then you're on the right track.
People who get ripped off get ripped off because they didn't do enough
research before signing the check; because they let their egos get in the way
of reality; because they want all of this to be easy; for a thousand
different reasons, none of which have anything to do with evil book doctors
or the short-sightedness of the publishing industry.
Writing-for-publication is a business, pure and simple. And just like any
other business, sometimes you need to reach out for assistance from somebody
who knows the ropes better than you.
-- John Gilstrap, author of Nathan's Run (now in paperback), and At All Costs
(due in June of '98 from Warner Books)
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Thu, 16 October 1997 08:31 AM EDT
From: DanWalsh
Message-id: <19971016123101.IAA08010@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Jim and Jay,
I don't take exception with anything either of you said. More than that, I
agree. Both of your post round out the discussion well.
There are sharks out there. I think so-called agents who prey on the hopes
of aspiring authors to extract their hard-earned cash are despicable. But I
do think legitimate book doctors make a contribution. I live in a town where
no critique group appears to exist. While taking writing classes at the
local university is an option, not all writing teachers are up on the latest
trends, and may have accomplished little themselves that would commend
their advice.
I tried interacting with an online group, but found about 10 of the 12
authors involved to be way down the line on the readiness scale, most with
unmarketable premises for their books.
I think the operative word on book doctors is "legitimate." Responding to an
ad is neither wise nor safe. Works the same with mechanics. Most people
walk into car repair shops feeling like a big wallet with legs. Easy
pickings. My mechanic has the teeniest ad in the yellow pages, but he's
honest and reliable, and via word of mouth his shop is never still. I
wouldn't go to a book doctor without a strong word of mouth recommendation.
Following
up on references. Expecting upfront proof that the freelance editor has the
credentials.
Dan
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Thu, 16 October 1997 02:12 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19971016181200.OAA28614@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<<1). It's REALLY difficult to find a *good* editor/editorial service. My
impression is that far more than half of the editors you'll find advertising
in places like Writers Digest are of questionable quality.>>
I placed an ad for my editorial services in Writer's Digest many years ago.
At that time, they required that anyone wanting to place an ad for freelance
editorial services submit credentials with their ad before they'd consider
printing it. I don't know if that policy still stands today.
<<There are just so many sharks in the water that the editors who are good
and reputable get covered in the same stink. It's really unfortunate, but
true. Maybe Kat91 (one of the good guys <g>) will drop by and tell us how
difficult it is to be mistrusted even before she opens her mouth.>>
Thanks, Jim. :-) When I first began using AOL, about three or four years
ago, there were no ads offering editorial services in the Writers Club.
Since then, it seems that a lot of folks have decided to hang their shingles
and see if they can get into the editorial business. Brand-new editors post
ads almost every day, and it seems that many of them have little or no
experience. As well, "book doctor" services, like Edit Ink and Woodside
Literary
Agency, have come under public scrutiny online. Inexperienced new editors
and suspect "book doctors" are getting more attention than ever these days.
Many writers have had bad experiences. All of this taints the reputation of
the freelance editorial profession as a whole. It's a shame, because fine
and reputable editors are being lumped in with the inept and crooked; writers
in need of assistance don't consider the help of those good editors
because of horror stories they've read.
The "bad guys" are avoidable: Keep reminding everyone to ask for and *check*
references.
<<Finally, there's a danger of using an editor as a crutch. If somebody
decides to go that route, it should be with the understanding that it's to
*learn* those last few skills it takes to be a fully professional and
competant writer. In this case, you really need to find an editor who is
willing to do some followup work regarding questions and opinions you don't
understand from the original edit. It should be a teaching relationship, not
just a
repair job.>>
Follow-ups to editorial work are vital. When I edit a manuscript, I commit
to answering my client's questions about my edits, the manuscript, other
manuscripts, writing in general, and marketing. After I've edited a
manuscript, I want to see it in print, and I want to see my client's
abilities as a writer improve. If it takes some time to answer questions or
to research a few likely markets for my client's work, it's well worth it.
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services.
"I'm so busy I don't have time to think up a good metaphor about how busy I
am!"
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Fri, 17 October 1997 09:54 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19971017135400.JAA12818@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Jim Bailey,
Thoughtful, lucid comments. Thanks
Balance in all things-I think Dad called it "moderation."
GYFort
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Fri, 17 October 1997 09:57 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19971017135801.JAA13933@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Ditto, Dan.
It seems that many take the bit in their teeth and run without noticing the
entire picture. All angles need to be assessed in any determination. Good,
"bad" and indifferent editors ( I cannot use the term BD..I do not see a
person's creative work as "sick.") publishers, agents, et al.
GYFort
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Fri, 17 October 1997 10:01 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19971017140100.KAA13177@ladder01.news.aol.com>
John,
More good advice, even if BD doesn't bother you. Bought "Nathan's Run"
earlier this week. Will get to it, shortly. Glad to see you staying in this
arena. The professional mentoring is invaluable to everyone.
GYFort
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Fri, 17 October 1997 05:14 PM EDT
From: JamesAB5
Message-id: <19971017211401.RAA11566@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Wow! Great exchange. We all came from different directions, and we all had
a different view, but between us, we laid a lot of good information on the
table.
Now all we need is someway to repost this series every month or so... :-)
Best,
Jim
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Sat, 18 October 1997 09:47 AM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19971018134701.JAA09966@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Perhaps there are few on this board who need the information, but rather than
waste money with "book doctors," why not read thearticles by experienced
writers on NovelAdvice. Jeanne Marie has attracted a fine "stable" who offer,
for free, much helpful information on the craft of writing. I'm not
suggesting this because I have joined the Cyberjournal, but because I am
impressed by the quality of
what's being presented there.
GYFort
Subject: Edit Ink
Date: Mon, 20 October 1997 12:05 PM EDT
From: Erin68
Message-id: <19971020160501.MAA19170@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Hi all! I've only been with AOL a few weeks and have been reading postings
on several boards in that time. I keep seeing references to Edit Ink but
not, shall I say, a definition of Edit Ink. :-)
Would someone please explain? I feel pretty ignorant!
Thanks!
Erin
Great things are achieved one breath at a time.
Subject: Re: Edit Ink
Date: Mon, 20 October 1997 07:53 PM EDT
From: Dodger24
Message-id: <19971020235300.TAA25261@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<<Hi all! I've only been with AOL a few weeks and have been reading postings
on several boards in that time. I keep seeing references to Edit Ink but
not, shall I say, a definition of Edit Ink. :-)
Would someone please explain? I feel pretty ignorant!>>
Hi.
Edit Ink is an "editing service" which charges EXHORBITANT fees (way, way,
way above "market rate," if there is such a thing, for freelance editing).
Worse yet, Edit Ink gets its clients through "referrals" from shady
agents/publishers who receive kickbacks for sending unsuspecting newbie
writers to these shucksters. Some legitimate agents/publishers have even
posted, verbatim, the letters they received soliciting their participation in
this shady,
if not downright illegal, process.
Needless to say, stay far, far away. In general, stay away from any
enterprise in which an agent/publisher refers you to a SPECIFIC editor
(his/her choice), and refuses to work with you if you choose to do your own
revisions via their specifications and/or engage a freelance editor of your
own choosing. If they insist you use ***their*** editor, they're almost
assuredly getting something for it.
Best of luck.
Just another writer in the trenches,
Dodger
Subject: Re: Edit Ink
Date: Mon, 20 October 1997 08:35 PM EDT
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19971021003501.UAA28489@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Re Edit Ink, go to www.geocities.com/soho/studios/7568 to see a website
covering experiences with Edit Ink and similar rip-offs of writers who
haven't learned the ropes of getting published. Read all.
GYFort
Subject: Re: Edit Ink
Date: Tue, 21 October 1997 01:45 AM EDT
From: Erin68
Message-id: <19971021054500.BAA27069@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Thanks for the help!!!!
Erin
Great things are achieved one breath at a time.
Subject: Re: Edit Ink
Date: Tue, 21 October 1997 02:20 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19971021182001.OAA00477@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<<Edit Ink is an "editing service" which charges EXHORBITANT fees (way, way,
way above "market rate," if there is such a thing, for freelance editing).>>
Typical rates for a variety of freelance editorial services are listed in
Writer's Market.
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
AOL Editors Forum Host
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services.
"I'm so busy I don't have time to think up a good metaphor about how busy I
am!"
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Tue, 28 October 1997 08:28 PM EST
From: SniviD
Message-id: <19971029012800.UAA08887@ladder02.news.aol.com>
<<<Here's what she got for her effort: writers who were furious at her for
telling them that they have a long way to go before being publishable;
writers who wanted "free samples" of her editing skills (something for
nothing); writers who would call her at six in the morning or eleven at night
because the muse had smacked them, and they wanted to bounce some ideas off
of her; writers who would
argue with her editorial advice, chastizing her for being
too dense to see what they "meant to say." >>>
There are those in every profession who treat professional advice in this
manner, but writing seems more susceptible perhaps because we put so much of
ourselves into what we write. If you make a bad wood carving, you can blame
it on bad wood or a dull knife, but with writing, it's all carved out of your
head (sometimes painfully <g>). Sometimes we take criticism as though
someone had insulted our child, but those who
are going to make it -- who really have that burning desire -- will pick
themselves up, dust themselves off, and sit back down at the computer. They
will also take such criticism under advisement, not necessarily taking it all
at face value, but considering it objectively and then making adjustments.
--d, still dusting herself off after the last series of rewrites (I really
need to vacuum that floor!)
Subject: Re: Want publishers to see your manuscript?
Date: Fri, 07 November 1997 07:58 PM EST
From: DearTori
Message-id: <19971108005800.TAA04441@ladder01.news.aol.com>
This is a great forum for writers to tell us (editors) how they feel. But as
in every profession, there are good editors and bad editors. I have been
through all the things mentioned before such as late-night phone calls,
asking for free advice and downright refusing to take advice on grammar and
spelling! On the other hand, I just dropped a writer last week, who was so
inexperienced, I told her (nicely:)) that she should take some basic writing
courses before sending in her manuscript. I worked with her for several days
and didn't charge her a dime. So, please understand that there are some
editors out there who truly love their work, and make it their goals to get
their authors into print. My wallet does not depend on editing for
nourishment, but my soul does.
Subject: Re: Help for writers...
Date: Sun, 30 November 1997 01:48 AM EST
From: SniviD
Message-id: <19971130064801.BAA04679@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Oh, Jeez -- now someone's named themselves after the folder!
Subject: Edit Ink
Date: Sat, 10 January 1998 10:38 AM EST
From: Eodtxn
Message-id: <19980110153800.KAA25685@ladder02.news.aol.com>
According to Jan 10, 1998 issue of Orlando Sentinel, Edit Ink is being sued
by NY Attorney General Dennis Vacco for its "network of fake agents and
publishers to lure aspiring writers into spending thousands for editing
"excellent" manuscripts". Edit Ink evidently generated $5.5 million in fees
with this scam. This outfit is probably NOT the only scam out there. Stay
alert and beware of those wanting money up front. Check out agents and
publishers through proper channels.
Subject: Re: Edit Ink
Date: Sat, 10 January 1998 03:26 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980110202600.PAA06361@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Eodtxn wrote:
<<According to Jan 10, 1998 issue of Orlando Sentinel, Edit Ink is being
sued by NY Attorney General Dennis Vacco for its "network of fake agents and
publishers to lure aspiring writers into spending thousands for editing
"excellent" manuscripts". Edit Ink evidently generated $5.5 million in fees
with this scam. This outfit is probably NOT the only scam out there. Stay
alert and beware of those wanting money up front. Check out agents and
publishers through proper channels.>>
I am certain that similar scams exist. However, most freelance editors are
honest. I agree that it is important to check out anyone to whom you
consider sending your manuscript and your money -- get and *check*
references. Of course it's important to make sure you aren't being sucked
into a scam; it is also important to make certain that the editor under
consideration is skilled, experienced, and shares your views about what makes
a story good and
the parameters of a freelance editor's role in making improvements. In other
words, it's important to find a good "match" between writer and editor.
I would like to point out that most freelance editors do ask for partial
payment in advance, so a request for an advance shouldn't lead folks to
assume criminal intent!
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
Host of the Editors Forum of the Writers Club on AOL
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services.
"Think of me as a Comma Relocation Engineer." ;-)
Subject: Re: Edit Ink
Date: Sun, 11 January 1998 02:51 PM EST
From: JEWELStill
Message-id: <19980111195100.OAA12612@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Hi,
I have heard that many of these book doctors are a real scam. In fact, I was
at this web site today (considering buying the book, if anyone has read it,
please email me!) Focus Your Writing - By Bonnie Hearn, and the author said:
"Q. How much should I pay an editor to look at my work?
A. Not much. Too many of the paid-for people can't make it on
their own writing. Some even blatantly pay agents and other
professionals to "refer" writers to them. Organizations such as the
National Writers Association can provide you with information
regarding this practice and which firms indulge in it."
There's more, but I won't quote the whole site here! ;-)
Cheers,
Jewels
Subject: Re: Edit Ink
Date: Sun, 11 January 1998 04:14 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980111211401.QAA24807@ladder01.news.aol.com>
JEWELStill wrote:
<<I have heard that many of these book doctors are a real scam. In fact, I
was at this web site today (considering buying the book, if anyone has read
it, please email me!) Focus Your Writing - By Bonnie Hearn, and the author
said: >>
Thanks for taking the time to post this link. I received a "system response"
error when I tried it, so I'll have to give it another try later.
<<"Q. How much should I pay an editor to look at my work?
A. Not much. Too many of the paid-for people can't make it on
their own writing. Some even blatantly pay agents and other
professionals to "refer" writers to them. Organizations such as the
National Writers Association can provide you with information
regarding this practice and which firms indulge in it.">>
To the best of my knowledge, it is very rare for a freelance editor to pay
agents and publishers to make referrals. The only editorial service I've
seen accused of this is Edit Ink.
Your post does bring up an interesting question ... one I think I'll schedule
for discussion at the next Editors Forum Chat (Monday, January 12, at 10 p.m.
ET ... in the Writers Club Workshop). The question is: Does one have to be
a successful author in order to be a good editor? I've sold quite a bit of
my work, and I've had a story recommended for an award, but I was editing
before that. I wonder if anyone has statistics about what percentage
of editors (at publishing houses and freelance) have pro writing credits. I
think that editors are primarily *editors* -- that one doesn't have to be a
professionally successful writer in order to be a good editor. As well, I
think that pro writing experience, no matter how impressive it might be,
doesn't necessarily mean a writer will have the ability to edit the works of
others!
Thanks for your post, Jewels! I think it'll lead to a great chat tomorrow
night. I hope some of the readers of this message board will take the time
to drop in. :-)
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
Host of the Editors Forum of the Writers Club on AOL
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services.
"Think of me as a Comma Relocation Engineer." ;-)
Subject: Re: Edit Ink
Date: Mon, 12 January 1998 07:11 PM EST
From: KarTempBer
Message-id: <19980113001101.TAA16147@ladder01.news.aol.com>
<< I wonder if anyone has statistics about what percentage
of editors (at publishing houses and freelance) have pro writing credits. I
think that editors are primarily *editors* -- that one doesn't have to be a
professionally successful writer in order to be a good editor. As well, I
think that pro writing experience, no matter how impressive it might be,
doesn't necessarily mean a writer will have the ability to edit the works of
others!>>
Editing and writing from "scratch" take two different mindsets. In the cases
of editors who also write (rare) and writers who do their own editing (not so
rare), the two mindsets can -- but don't always -- converge. Understanding
the dynamics and technique requisite to construct a solid, well-written novel
or short story doesn't necessarily mean the editor has the ability -- or
desire -- to write his or her own book. Heaven knows, there are
brilliant editors, just as there are teachers or mentors in other aspects of
the arts, who may have a wonderful gift for figuring out what needs to be
fixed, but who may have never acheived any great success as a performer
themselves. Most NY house editors are editors, not writers. In fact,
there's been a controversy among the romance industry over whether a writing
editor -- especially in her own house -- isn't a conflict of interest: how
much
time can an editor be spending on her authors (and editorial load in genre
houses in enormous) if she's spending time writing her own books as well?
So, no -- an editor's ability shouldn't be linked to his/her credentials as a
writer, IMO.
Glad Edit, Ink's getting nailed, though.
Karen Berger w/a Karen Templeton
Silhouette Yours Truly
WEDDING DAZE, Mar. 98 (in stores mid to late February!)
WEDDING BELLE, July 98
WEDDING? IMPOSSIBLE! late 98
Subject: Editors Forum Chat
Date: Sun, 11 January 1998 04:33 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980115112400.GAA22093@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Must one be a successful author in order to be a good editor? Drop by the
next Editors Forum Chat for discussion (along with free cyberdrinks, virtual
pizza, and a singing Warthog!).
Food for pre-chat thought:
I've sold quite a bit of my work, and I've had a story recommended for an
award, but I was editing before that. Does anyone have statistics on the
percentage of editors (at publishing houses and freelance) with pro writing
credits? I think that editors are primarily *editors* -- that one doesn't
have to be a professionally successful writer in order to be a good editor.
As well, I think that pro writing experience, no matter how impressive it
might be, doesn't necessarily mean a writer will have the ability to edit the
works of others! Naturally, I'd like to chat with you if you agree with me!
I'm even more interested in hearing opposing views. A good debate is the
best way to clarify one's own views and to expand the ol' world view. ;-)
The Editors Forum Chat:
Monday, January 12
10 p.m. ET
In the Writers Club Workshop
No protocol
Everyone is encouraged to attend ... as long as you promise not to feed or
taunt the editors! ;-)
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer & editor
Kat91@aol.com
Host of the Editors Forum of the Writers Club on AOL
Email for info about the Editors Forum or freelance editorial services.
"Think of me as a Comma Relocation Engineer." ;-)
Subject: Re: Editors Forum Chat
Date: Fri, 16 January 1998 08:38 AM EST
From: Amersham
Message-id: <19980116133801.IAA16578@ladder02.news.aol.com>
I'm an editor AND a writer. I freelance edit a monthly magazine, and each
month I write 1/3 to 1/2 of the articles in the magazine (why? because no one
else will and I need to fill space!). What I really love writing is fiction,
and I'm told I'm fairly good at it. I've had one story published and have not
attempted to get any more published (every year that's one of my
resolutions--to send out my stories--but I don't do it). I edit nonfiction,
not
fiction, so I don't feel a conflict there at all. I could edit fiction up to
a point, but do not have a great deal of experience doing that.
I don't understand why an editor who writes would ever be considered a
"problem." I've also taught essay and research paper writing to college
freshman. To me, it's all connected.
Karen
Subject: Are Book Doctors Helpful
Date: Tue, 17 February 1998 06:10 PM EST
From: JKBREWER
Message-id: <19980217231001.SAA09979@ladder03.news.aol.com>
I recently completed a novel and have started sending it out. Has anyone used
a book doctor? If yes, could I have your comments? Does anyone know a good
one? How much do they cost?
Any info will be appreciated.
JKBrewer
Subject: Help for new writers
Date: Tue, 17 February 1998 07:36 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980218003600.TAA14577@ladder02.news.aol.com>
When I was a new writer, I wished I knew someone who could proofread my
manuscripts. I wished I knew an experienced professional writer or editor
who could tell me if my work was marketable. I knew there were things wrong
with my writing, but I couldn't figure out what to do about them. I wished
someone could help. Most confusing of all was the whole process of
submitting a manuscript. How should I format it? Where should I send it?
What
should my cover letter say? Did I need an agent? A copyright? I read a lot
of how-to books, but they often added to my confusion. I wished I knew
someone who could just *tell* me this stuff.
That was a long time ago. Now I'm an established writer and editor, Host of
the Editors Forum on AOL, and I write the Pep Talk column for the Writers
Club. I even teach classes on writing and how to sell it. I wrote the text
of a best-selling educational computer game, scads of articles, and one of my
stories was recommended for the Bram Stoker Award. Over the last twelve
years, I have also worked as a freelance editor, specializing in helping
new writers. Many of my clients' books have been published. If you want to
know more about my experience and clients, I can send you my resume and
references. My accomplishments aren't the point of this message.
The point is:
You don't have to fight your way through those how-to books on submissions.
You don't have to take a wild guess about where to send your manuscript.
You don't have to send it with your fingers crossed, hoping that it's good
enough and that it doesn't have too many grammatical errors.
I can edit, critique, and help you to prepare your manuscript for submission.
I'll walk you through the submission process.
If that sounds good to you, please email me. I won't hit you with
high-pressure hype or slick junk mail -- I'll answer some questions for you,
tell you about myself, and ask you to tell me about your writing.
Hope to hear from you soon. Have a great day! :-)
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach
Kat91@aol.com
Subject: Freelance Editing Chat
Date: Tue, 17 February 1998 07:37 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980218003700.TAA14674@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Editors Forum Chat
Topic: The Freelance Editing Profession
Date: February 23, 1998
Time: 10 p.m. ET
Place: Writers Club Workshop
Protocol will be observed.
The image of the freelance editing profession has taken serious hits.
Freelance editors have been compared to "literary ambulance chasers." What
can freelance editors do about it? We can inform the public about the
valuable services we perform. We can educate new freelance editors about how
to maintain a professional image and how to conduct their businesses in a
professional way, in order to avoid newbies' mistakes that reflect negatively
on all
of us. If you're a member of the Editors Forum, a freelance editor, or
someone interested in the freelance editing profession, please attend this
important chat. Speakers will include Kathy Saideman and Kimberly
Rufer-Bach.
Kathy Saideman is a publishing professional with over a decade’s worth of
experience in the book publishing industry. She is the owner of Saideman
Editorial Services, a company offering free-lance editorial
evaluations/critiques of book projects and writing instruction. Her clients
come from all over the country and include published and unpublished authors
writing both fiction and non-fiction.
Before opening her own business, Kathy was a book editor with New American
Library/Penguin U.S.A. in New York and a literary agent with the Sandra
Dijkstra Literary Agency in Southern California. She has worked with such
authors as Amy Tan, Jonathan Kellerman, Diane Mott Davidson, Susan Faludi and
children's author Janell Cannon.
Kim hosts the Editors Forum. She has been a freelance editor for over 12
years, working with publishers, businesses, and individual writers. Most of
her clients are first time-authors, including Howard Losness (The Columbian,
and two more books scheduled for publication this year), Suzan Woods (A
Sparkle on the Water), and Brenda Love (The Encyclopedia of Unusual Sex
Practices, available in English, German, Japanese, and
Spanish; available soon in French, Portuguese, Czech, and Polish).
Kim is also a writing instructor and freelance writer, with fiction and
non-fiction credits that include articles, book reviews, a best-selling
educational computer game (Fisher-Price), and a story in Adventures in the
Twilight Zone (DAW Books, Inc.) that garnered recommendations for the Bram
Stoker Award.
Subject: Re: Are Book Doctors Helpful
Date: Wed, 18 February 1998 10:30 PM EST
From: Jay is all
Message-id: <19980219033000.WAA02597@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Cheech... Drop a little bait in the water and look what happens.
The question was on book doctors, and the answer is: No one can write
your book for you. If a book doctor could take a stinko story and make it a
winner they'd be doing it for their own work and be too busy making money to
bother with you. If you need a little help getting the commas in the right
position, though, and you need a practiced eye to point out the spots that
need a bit of work, than an editor is a good idea.
But... Have you taken advantage of the options that cost nothing? Have
you joined a critique group? Have you posted a chapter or two in the
library, here, and asked for opinions? Have you taken writing courses? They
cost a lot less than a book doctor and the improvement in your technique is
the goal, not an incidental byproduct of the editing.
Subject: Re: Are Book Doctors Helpful
Date: Thu, 19 February 1998 08:45 AM EST
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19980219134501.IAA04539@ladder03.news.aol.com>
NO, No No to book doctors. Your writing is not sick. See "Agent Talk" above
and the information from "WriteConnection."
GwenAlpha
Subject: Re: Are Book Doctors Helpful
Date: Thu, 19 February 1998 08:51 AM EST
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19980219135101.IAA05006@ladder03.news.aol.com>
p.s.. to the above,
Also, see today's postings at "Edit Ink Alert." I do not refer to legitimate
editors, but these boards have running stories on scams of impressionable,
expectant writers.
GwenAlpha
Subject: Re: Are Book Doctors Helpful
Date: Fri, 20 February 1998 12:04 PM EST
From: JKBREWER
Message-id: <19980220170401.MAA10532@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Thanks for the feedback on book doctors. Jay is all, I don't need no book
doctor to write my book. I already done writ it, commas and all. The problem
is, I got so steeped in it that I no longer know whether it's a stinko story
or a masterpiece. It depends on the day.
You mentioned posting a couple of chapters in the library and asking for
opinions. Where the heck is the library? I can't seem to find it.
And, Qwen Alpha, I read the posts under "Agent Talk." How do I get to the
Write Connection?
JKBrewer@aol.com
Subject: Re: Are Book Doctors Helpful
Date: Sat, 21 February 1998 08:46 AM EST
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19980221134600.IAA10105@ladder02.news.aol.com>
When Makdane was involved I had the address. I hope someone on line posts the
information you need. I've forgotten as I no longer use the service. So
sorry. Just be careful. wish I had been more so.
Lots of success.
GwenAlpha
Subject: Re: Are Book Doctors Helpful
Date: Sat, 21 February 1998 05:15 PM EST
From: Jay is all
Message-id: <19980221221501.RAA25160@ladder02.news.aol.com>
>>You mentioned posting a couple of chapters in the library and asking for
opinions. Where the heck is the library? I can't seem to find it.
Instead of punching for messages at the main Writers Club menu, punch the
button for File Libraries. They play games with which fiction library of the
three is accepting uploads, so look for the one that has the latest upload
dates before you post.
Good Luck
Jay
Subject: Re: Are Book Doctors Helpful
Date: Sun, 22 February 1998 09:03 AM EST
From: GYFort
Message-id: <19980222140301.JAA13115@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Re; Legit agents ( book doctors)
www.geocites.com/SoHo/Studios/7568/agents.html
http://members.tripod.com/~cyberstalked/index/htm
At least this is what I copied. Hope they're accurate.
GwenAlpha
Subject: Rescheduled Freelance Ed. Chat
Date: Mon, 02 March 1998 09:13 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980303021301.VAA24249@ladder03.news.aol.com>
If you were unable to sign on for the Editors Forum Chat last Monday, you
were not alone. AOL was down! We're going to give this another try ....
Editors Forum Chat
Topic: The Freelance Editing Profession
Date: March 9, 1998
Time: 10 p.m. ET
Place: Writers Club Workshop
Protocol will be observed.
The image of the freelance editing profession has taken serious hits.
Freelance editors have been compared to "literary ambulance chasers." What
can freelance editors do about it? We can inform the public about the
valuable services we perform. We can educate new freelance editors about how
to maintain a professional image and how to conduct their businesses in a
professional way, in order to avoid newbies' mistakes that reflect negatively
on all
of us. If you're a member of the Editors Forum, a freelance editor, or
someone interested in the freelance editing profession, please attend this
important chat. Speakers will include Kathy Saideman and Kimberly
Rufer-Bach.
Hope to see you there!
-- Kim
Kat91@aol.com
Subject: Re: Freelance Editing Chat
Date: Sun, 08 March 1998 02:32 PM EST
From: Cathyb919
Message-id: <19980308193301.OAA26689@ladder02.news.aol.com>
March 8, 1998
I am in need of an editor for my book and would appreciate some suggestions.
I am a first time writer working on fiction story.
In addition to suggestions, I would like information on how to contact
either Kathy Saideman or Kimberly Rufer-Bach.
Thanks,
Cathyb919@aol.com
Subject: Re: Help for new writers
Date: Sun, 08 March 1998 02:43 PM EST
From: Cathyb919
Message-id: <19980308194301.OAA28430@ladder02.news.aol.com>
March 8, 1998
To: kat91@aol.com
I am so thrilled to know about you. I have been desperate to find someone to
help me get going with my manuscripts.
I know I have a great idea for this book and I feel it has great potential. I
have written 3 pages but the whole story is in my head. I just need to stay
disciplined and keep going.
Your help would be greatly appreciated.
Cathyb919@aol.com
Subject: Re: Help for new writers
Date: Sun, 08 March 1998 10:42 PM EST
From: JamesAB5
Message-id: <19980309034200.WAA28527@ladder03.news.aol.com>
<<March 8, 1998
To: kat91@aol.com
I am so thrilled to know about you. I have been desperate to find someone to
help me get going with my manuscripts.
I know I have a great idea for this book and I feel it has great potential. I
have written 3 pages but the whole story is in my head. I just need to stay
disciplined and keep going.
Your help would be greatly appreciated.
Cathyb919@aol.com>>
Hi Cathy,
Sounds like you're on your way. Not much an editor can do for you until you
have it written, though. The important thing is to NOT worry about how it
comes out the first time through. That's what first drafts are FOR. Once
you have your complete story on the page in front of you, there will be a lot
of changes that you will be able to spot for yourself. It's impossible for
an editor to know what needs to be changed to make the story better
without a fairly complete manuscript.
Also, if you get to the point where you've written a novel's worth of
material, you WILL become a better writer over that time, and you'll start to
understand what your strengths and weaknesses are. Generally, it's when
you've discovered 95% of the writing process through your own efforts that
you will get the most out of having an editor go through the ms. You'll
understand what was changed and *why* it was changed, so that hopefully the
next time
you won't need an editor at all.
But for now, you don't need Kat or one of the other editors, I'm sure even
they will agree. Probably better would be a good handful of books on writing
and writing fiction. You'll have to get some recommendations on these, since
I'm not fully aware of which ones are the best out there.
Good luck with your efforts. We're always happy to have somebody join us in
the trenches. :-)
Best,
Jim
Subject: Re: Freelance Editing Chat
Date: Mon, 09 March 1998 08:45 PM EST
From: GordonRyan
Message-id: <19980310014501.UAA02341@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Cathy,
If you open the top folder in this area (Fiction Writing) called Agent Talk,
you will find many posts by KGSaideman. From those you can e-mail her. In
the meantime I agree with Jame's post. You need to keep moving on your
novel. Having three pages is the opening blast at what could be a fun-filled
adventure, but an editor will not really help you with concept or plot lines.
Not that they don't know about such things, for they deal with them all
the time, but no one can really hold your hand while you write a novel.
That's what makes each one so unique - the writer's style and POV. I also
think you have the primary ingredient established - discipline. Like
anything in life, it's the slog that brings us to the end. Everyone, and I
truly mean everyone, has a "great idea for a novel." That idea usually can
fill up 5-10 pages of thought. The other 390 pages needs to be part of the
story
too. How that is achieved is where the discipline comes in. Good luck.
Gordon Ryan
Subject: Info. about Freelance Editing
Date: Tue, 10 March 1998 01:46 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980310184600.NAA17835@ladder02.news.aol.com>
What is a freelance editor? What can a freelance editor do for you? How
much do freelance editorial services cost? How do you pick the right
freelance editor for your project? What questions should you ask before a
freelance editor starts working on your manuscript?
Here's where you can find answers to frequently asked questions about
freelance editing: Freelance Editing FAQ.
The "Freelance Editing FAQ" is a resource provided by the Writers Club's
Editors Forum.
Subject: Re: Freelance Editing Chat
Date: Tue, 10 March 1998 02:51 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980310195100.OAA25920@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Cathyb919 wrote:
<< I am in need of an editor for my book and would appreciate some
suggestions. I am a first time writer working on fiction story.
In addition to suggestions, I would like information on how to contact
either Kathy Saideman or Kimberly Rufer-Bach.>
Hi, Cathy --
I just noticed your message today, and I'll email you right away.
Best,
Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer, editor, & Host of the Writers Club's Editors
Forum
kat91@aol.com
Email me for information about my freelance editorial services.
NEW! All you ever wanted to know about freelance editing: Freelance
Editing FAQ
Subject: Re: Help for new writers
Date: Tue, 10 March 1998 02:59 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19980310195900.OAA26813@ladder02.news.aol.com>
JamesAB5 wrote:
<<Hi Cathy,
Sounds like you're on your way. Not much an editor can do for you until you
have it written, though. The important thing is to NOT worry about how it
comes out the first time through. That's what first drafts are FOR. Once
you have your complete story on the page in front of you, there will be a lot
of changes that you will be able to spot for yourself. It's impossible for
an editor to know what needs to be changed to make the story better
without a fairly complete manuscript.
Also, if you get to the point where you've written a novel's worth of
material, you WILL become a better writer over that time, and you'll start to
understand what your strengths and weaknesses are. Generally, it's when
you've discovered 95% of the writing process through your own efforts that
you will get the most out of having an editor go through the ms. You'll
understand what was changed and *why* it was changed, so that hopefully the
next time
you won't need an editor at all.
But for now, you don't need Kat or one of the other editors, I'm sure even
they will agree. Probably better would be a good handful of books on writing
and writing fiction. You'll have to get some recommendations on these, since
I'm not fully aware of which ones are the best out there.>>
An editor can't edit a manuscript that has not been written! :-)
A freelance editor can help with the process of outlining and planning a
novel. However, I suggest that new writers try to do that themselves, with
the help of books (like Jim says), classes, and workshops, before they seek
freelance editorial assistance.
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer, editor, & Host of the Writers Club's Editors
Forum
kat91@aol.com
Email me for information about my freelance editorial services.
NEW! All you ever wanted to know about freelance editing: Freelance
Editing FAQ
Subject: Intro to Publishing course on the WC web site
Date: Thu, 19 March 1998 12:50 PM EST
From: THopeB
Message-id: <1998031917505400.MAA00877@ladder01.news.aol.com>
INTRODUCTION TO PUBLISHING, by Patricia J. Bell (screen name PatJBell) is a
4-week course intended to provide a strong base for undertaking the
publishing of a book. "Since the field of publishing is such a huge one and
the background required so extensive," Bell says, "the class is merely a
start in what should be the right direction. Basically it is an overview of
the territory, with maps for later use identified."
Bell, author of "THE Prepublishing Handbook--What you should know BEFORE you
publish your first book," is president of CatsPaw Press and has
self-published her own books.
To learn more, visit the Writers Club University on the Writers Club's web
site at www.writersclub.com or send e-mail to Publicat@aol.com
Subject: Do it yourself
Date: Mon, 30 March 1998 11:25 AM EST
From: CampusBoss
Message-id: <1998033016251000.LAA29488@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Hi, I'm the "dean" for the Writers Club University, the school for writers at
the Writers Club web site. For more information, or to read all of the course
descriptions, go to www.writersclub.com or click on this handy link:
Writers Club University
Be advised: REGISTRATION CLOSES APRIL 4. Classes start on April 5, with first
weekly chat sessions throughout the following week.
--------------------------------------------------
Here are a couple of courses that seem expecially good. There are more:
INTRODUCTION TO PUBLISHING, by Patricia J. Bell (screen name PatJBell) is a
6-week course intended to provide a strong base for undertaking the
publishing of a book. "Since the field of publishing is such a huge one and
the background required so extensive," Bell says, "the class is merely a
start in what should be the right direction. Basically it is an overview of
the territory, with maps for later use identified."
Bell, author of "THE Prepublishing Handbook--What you should know BEFORE you
publish your first book," is president of CatsPaw Press and has
self-published her own books.
To learn more, visit the Writers Club University on the Writers Club's web
site at www.writersclub.com or send e-mail to Publicat@aol.com
------
CRITIQUING YOUR WRITING, by Michael and Jennifer Dearmin (screen name
WriteImag1) is a 6-week course focusing upon improving your writing through
both theory and example. Each student submits an essay to the instructor
BEFORE class starts, and these essays form the backbone of a detailed
critique/discussion/rewrite course.
The Dearmins operate The Write Image, a writing, photography, and pre-press
service for business professionals.
To learn more, visit the Writers Club University on the Writers Club's web
site at www.writersclub.com or send e-mail to WriteImag1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Info. about Freelance Editing
Date: Fri, 03 April 1998 08:02 PM EST
From: CeeDee9
Message-id: <1998040401022201.UAA00268@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Did someone open a can of Spam in here. MYGOD, the place reeks of
it!!!!!!!!!
Subject: Re: Info. about Freelance Editing
Date: Mon, 13 April 1998 12:35 AM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <1998041304352400.AAA01518@ladder01.news.aol.com>
CeeDee9 wrote:
<<Did someone open a can of Spam in here. MYGOD, the place reeks of
it!!!!!!!!!>>
Your message appears to be a follow-up to my notice about the Editors Forum's
new "Freelance Editing FAQ." The Editors Forum is an official Writers Club
group. Our chats (currently on AOL, and soon to be on the new Writers Club
site on the Web) and newsletter are dedicated to the purposes of improving
writer-editor communications and discussion of editing- and
publishing-related issues. Our members include editors,
writers, indexers, and translators. The "FAQ" is not an ad. It provides
information about freelance editing for writers and aspiring freelance
editors. It also includes information about the Editors Forum.
BTW, nice use of color! ;-)
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer, editor, & Host of the Writers Club's Editors
Forum
NEW! All you ever wanted to know about freelance editing: The Editors
Forum's Freelance Editing FAQ
Need an editor? Want to join the Editors Forum? Email kat91@aol.com
Subject: Need a ghost writer
Date: Tue, 28 April 1998 01:03 AM EDT
From: Jaryd626
Message-id: <1998042805034200.BAA26987@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Los Angeles producer needs talented novelist to ghost write an A-List
screenplay. Please email me if interested. Yes, there's pay.
Subject: Re: Info. about Freelance Editing
Date: Thu, 25 June 1998 08:16 PM EDT
From: CeeDee9
Message-id: <1998062600163100.UAA12289@ladder01.news.aol.com>
I kind of thought it was an ad placed by one of the members. Sorry.
Best Wishes,
Dave
Subject: Are you stumped for a title?
Date: Fri, 26 June 1998 12:10 PM EDT
From: Kibandi
Message-id: <1998062616103100.MAA05555@ladder01.news.aol.com>
If you would like FREE help in developing the right title for that piece you
are writing, you will find it at Title Search
FREE help is hard to find nowadays, but her it is. Visit Title Search for
creative assistance with titles.
Subject: Can't think of a title?
Date: Sat, 04 July 1998 09:57 AM EDT
From: Kibandi
Message-id: <1998070413571800.JAA03829@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Get FREE help with titling you work at Title Search .
FREE help is hard to find nowadays, but her it is. Visit Title Search for
creative assistance with titles.
Kibandi
Subject: Info about book doctors
Date: Tue, 11 August 1998 12:33 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <1998081116332700.MAA27872@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Looking for information about the pros and cons of book doctors? Check out
the Writers Club's Editors Forum website: Freelance Editing FAQ .
-- Kim
Editors Forum Host
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer, editor, & Host of the Writers Club's Editors
Forum
NEW! All you ever wanted to know about freelance editing: The Editors
Forum's Freelance Editing FAQ
Need an editor? Want to join the Editors Forum? Email kat91@aol.com
Subject: Hidden Treasures
Date: Thu, 20 August 1998 07:16 PM EDT
From: CHy1001753
Message-id: <1998082023161700.TAA12446@ladder03.news.aol.com>
Could you tell me how to go about submitting my novel to you?
DH
Charles
Subject: Re: Why You Need One
Date: Sun, 04 October 1998 05:35 PM EDT
From: CynMob
Message-id: <19981004173522.04330.00020284@ngol01.aol.com>
Patrika, you're overstating the case. I think there's a place for people who
know what they're doing to help new writers starting out and maybe SOME
established writers use book docs. If there's no other way to figure out
what the problems are and whether or not a writer's got what it takes, then
maybe it makes sense to pay a professional for some advice. I have one
friend who says it was very helpful with her first book.
But my experience with publishers has been that if the story's there, the
editor will work with you. I always get an editorial letter suggesting
changes or improvements -- always. I welcome them, the tougher the better.
I've found my editors (and there've been six of them so far) ALL -- without
exception -- liked working with their writers. True, more of the line
editing responsibilities have shifted to copy editors, but to say that the
publishing establishment doesn't edit anymore is just not true. I get line
edits from both. And these are major NY publishing houses -- two so far,
three within the next month or so. Penguin Putnam Berkley Jove and St
Martins (with the third player, just as recognizable, to be named after
details are finalized.)
So maybe there's a place for book docs, IF the writer uses them as a learning
tool. And as for Sol Stein -- I've found his books useful, but could I point
out that Mr Stein makes his living doing this sort of stuff? Between the
software, the books, etc -- I certainly would NOT say that he's being
insincere, but he does have a vested interest in the profession. Let me point
out, too, MEG is touted as a good example of how paying for edits can work
out. The book was awful, and look what's happened to the subsequent options
books.
There's a place for book docs, I guess. But it'd be misleading to imply that
most published writers use them.
Cyn
There are so many avenues to get help. Reading groups, college courses,
learning annexes, teachers -- if those are not available, then maybe a paid
professional is the answer.
Subject: A book doctor responds
Date: Sat, 24 October 1998 12:11 PM EDT
From: MPesola
Message-id: <19981024121156.09953.00000359@ng02.aol.com>
Most new writers do need a book doctor if they're serious about wanting to
publish their books. I've been dedicated to helping new writers for 5 years
and even though they may have a good story to tell, most do not have much of
a command over language, style, voice, characterization, pacing, etc.
Punctuation is usually atrocious and the manuscript is riddled with
redundancies. But I give them lots of credit for having the tenancity to sit
down and
write a book. It's hard work. Sometimes a diamond lurks beneath all the
roughness and then I can really work with them to bring it out. Usually
editors and agents can tell after the few paragraphs and certain by the third
page if the manuscript is well written or has what it takes to be published.
Most submissions never get past that test before they are put into the return
envelope. The trick is to get a manuscript in the best form possible so that
an editor or agent will want to continue reading. Even if the manuscript is
rejected for other reasons, at least it got a reading, often times some
accompanied by important feedback. All writers benefit from a good editor,
whose job is to make the writer's work the best it can be while maintaining
the writer's own voice and style. Most new writers think that because they've
written the first draft, that's all they need to do. I'm done, let's publish.
That's just the first step. The next step is editing and shaping the book.
Even John Grisham has his editor edit his first drafts. (It just so happens
that his editor is also his agent.) The real work of writing is in the
editing, something a writer can learn to do or have a professional do. Either
way, it's not a finished book without it. And that's how editors and agents
can tell after the first few paragraphs. New writers who keep submitting
their first drafts will be able to paper their walls with rejections. A
writer who's book has been edited may receive a call. Need I say more?
M. Pesola
Freelance book editor
Subject: Re: A book doctor responds
Date: Sat, 24 October 1998 10:23 PM EDT
From: TypeWrong
Message-id: <19981024222338.20959.00000249@ng31.aol.com>
>most do not have much of a command over language, style, voice,
>characterization, pacing, etc. Punctuation is usually atrocious
I have to agree much of the work submitted for publication is probably of a
lesser quality than desired. On the other hand, such "errors" as are listed
above do not denote the need of a book doctor but rather the need for an
education. In the case of characterization, pacing, etc., that too comes
with study and experience. In some cases a book doctor may be a useful
contact -- but in all honesty I believe they are used in many other cases as
a
crutch to prop up a failed attempt to write -- an easy way to make it all
well and better. No, thank you. My style is mine and if it doesn't meet the
needs of the publisher, I will work out the bugs on my own and in my own
style. In all due respects, book doctors certainly have their place in the
world -- but if Hemingway, F Scott, Tolstoy, and Farrell made it without one
(which I believe they did), I have no doubt I can, too.
Subject: Re: A book doctor responds
Date: Sun, 25 October 1998 10:33 AM EST
From: WTNLori
Message-id: <19981025103337.16436.00001154@ng-fi1.aol.com>
>Usually editors and agents can tell after the few paragraphs and certain by
>the third page if the manuscript is well written or has what it takes to be
>published.
This is quite true. Agents only look at the first few pages. I'm a teaching
assistant for Lary Crews, and we see some writing that would curl people's
hair. That's why we like to help people be better writers. If anyone would
like to read about his classes, check out the WCU Catalogue.
Writers Club University Course Catalog
´`*:»§«*´`»{@}«»{@}«´`*:»§«*´`
WTNLori . . . . who has learned to live and love again.
´`*:»§«*´`»{@}«»{@}«´`*:»§«*´`
Subject: Re: A book doctor responds
Date: Thu, 29 October 1998 08:58 PM EST
From: AnnieHawk
Message-id: <19981029205828.07202.00001039@ng145.aol.com>
A writer who's book has been edited may receive a call.
Book doctor, heal thyself!
Subject: A freelance editor responds
Date: Sat, 14 November 1998 05:35 PM EST
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19981114173525.26342.00000650@ng149.aol.com>
People choose to work with freelance editorial professionals for a variety of
reasons.
A writer for whom English is a second language often needs a hand with the
complexities of the language.
A person who doesn't consider himself a writer, but who wants to publish a
book on a specific subject for informational (as opposed to literary)
purposes, is usually in need of freelance editorial assistance. This person
might even turn to a ghostwriter.
Publishing houses with backlogs, or which are too small to have in-house
editorial staff, often turn to freelance editors.
Self-publishers who want their manuscripts proofread before they go to press
often seek out freelance editorial assistance.
Dyslexics, and others for whom the complexities of grammar, spelling, and
punctuation are very difficult (just as I can't add without counting on my
fingers), are often my most grateful and pleased clients.
Businesses work with freelance editors for reasons similar to those of
publishers.
Many freelance editorial clients are new writers who feel they don't get
enough one-on-one feedback from writing instructors, that the input of a
writer's group isn't backed with enough experience, and who want to submit
clean manuscripts. Many of these folks see a freelance editor as a private
writing tutor who uses the client's own manuscript as an example. Some want
to know why their manuscripts have been rejected and how to improve them.
Others know something is wrong with their manuscripts, but don't know how to
fix the problems. Some new writers turn to freelance editors for assistance
with the process of preparing and marketing submissions.
Established writers also work with freelance editors, because they want to
maintain the high standards of the manuscripts they submit.
I've been a freelance editor for over twelve years, and I know my clients
value and need my services. I've edited about a half-dozen books for one
particular client, and over the years he's published three of those books and
picked up an agent. LOL -- as a matter of fact, glancing at the calendar, I
bet I'll see his next manuscript soon (he always seems to finish his works in
the winter). As I wrote this post, I was IMed by another client, who
says he'll have another manuscript for me to help him with early in the new
year. He gave me his new phone number, so I can use him as a reference.
However, most folks get what they want out of one editorial project,
particularly because I offer free follow-ups. That means, unless my clients
actually want me to make marks on another manuscript, all of my advice and
assistance is free of charge. Hey, the way I see it, handing a client a
manuscript
with the commas all in place isn't enough. They hire me to help them to get
their work published, and that's my goal.
I guess that's the last point I wanted to make here about freelance editing.
Freelance editing isn't going to make anyone rich (if they're honest). It
won't make anyone famous (but perhaps infamous, if they're dishonest).
Anyone who stays in this business for very long does it because he or she
loves it -- loves books, loves working with writers.
Oh yeah, and I have one client who always sends chocolate with her
manuscripts!
If you'd like to learn more about freelance editing, check out the Editors
Forum's Freelance Editing FAQ.
-- Kim
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer, editor, & Host of the Writers Club's Editors
Forum
All you ever wanted to know about freelance editing: The Editors Forum's
Freelance Editing FAQ
Need an editor? Want to join the Editors Forum? E-mail kat91@aol.com
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Tue, 24 November 1998 09:10 PM EST
From: PerkiDJ
Message-id: <19981124211045.10564.00000801@ng-ch1.aol.com>
>Oh yeah, and I have one client who always sends chocolate with her
>manuscripts!
Hey! If bribery works I can always get the candy............
Dave
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Sat, 28 November 1998 03:07 PM EST
From: ItsEr time
Message-id: <19981128150752.28277.00001907@ng07.aol.com>
I like to write and have been told I am talented by a few, yet I have the
problem you were talking about with grammar, you can probaly spot it already
by just this little missive, even with grammar check I have people proofread
and a ton of errors crop up. I want to send a story off of mine to this
local publication, maybe you can give me some pointers? Well take care and
pen on. Er
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Tue, 08 December 1998 09:33 AM EST
From: LaryCrews
Message-id: <19981208093313.05508.00002246@ng-ch1.aol.com>
If you want an excellent freelance editor, Email Laurie Rosin at LR
Editor@aol.com
She is a freelance book editor responsible for 32 bestsellers and I recommend
her highly. Mention that you were referred to her by Lary on America Online.
(You can Email her at LR Editor here on AOL.)
Laurie Rosin
Manuscript Therapy
1736 Hawthorne Street
Sarasota FL 34239
----------------------------------
If Laurie is too busy, or you want to try some others, here are some other
freelance book editors (sometimes called "book doctors"), whom I also
recommend:
(You may mention my name in any correspondence with these editors.)
------------------------------
Veroncia Conte
631 Parkwood Avenue
Altamonte Springs, FL 32714
------------------------------
William Greenleaf
525 East Stonebridge Drive
Gilbert AZ 85234
------------------------------
Peggy Moran
Woodrian Press
#325
1173A 2nd Avenue
NYC, NY 10021
------------------------------
Jane Rafal
881 Stockton Road
Valley Cottage, NY 10989
------------------------------
Joyce Standish
2605 East Flamingo Road
Las Vegas, NV 89121
------------------------------
Toby Stein
45 Church Street
Montclair, NJ 07042
Lary Crews
Subject: More excellent book doctors
Date: Fri, 25 December 1998 08:24 PM EST
From: LaryCrews
Message-id: <19981225202438.00858.00001755@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Some other recommended book doctors:
Laurie Rosin (LR Editor@aol.com)
Manuscript Therapy
1736 Hawthorne Street
Sarasota FL 34239
-------------------------------
Veroncia Conte
631 Parkwood Avenue
Altamonte Springs, FL 32714
------------------------------
William Greenleaf
525 East Stonebridge Drive
Gilbert AZ 85234
------------------------------
Peggy Moran
Woodrian Press
#325
1173A 2nd Avenue
NYC, NY 10021
------------------------------
Jane Rafal
881 Stockton Road
Valley Cottage, NY 10989
------------------------------
Joyce Standish
2605 East Flamingo Road
Las Vegas, NV 89121
------------------------------
Toby Stein
45 Church Street
Montclair, NJ 07042
------------------------------
Lary Crews
Instructor: Writers Club University
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Mon, 28 December 1998 02:57 PM EST
From: PvScribe
Message-id: <19981228145728.29070.00002896@ng17.aol.com>
Lary
Guess you didn't know that your fellow WCU instructor, me, Patrika Vaughn, is
also a book doctor. How about adding me to your list of recommended book
doctors? I'am sure Steve will vouch for me, since you and I didn't happen
to meet before you left Sarasota.
Hope you're having a good time out there, and that your novel writing courses
are going well.
Happy New Year
Pat
Patrika Vaughn (PvScribe), instructor
Subject: Why You Need One
Date: Mon, 28 December 1998 03:06 PM EST
From: PvScribe
Message-id: <19981228150622.29070.00002901@ng17.aol.com>
Have you ever edited something for the umteenth time and missed some glaring
typos?
Everyone has. After a while you see what you expect to be on the page
instead of what's really there.
That's one reason for using a book doctor, but it is one of the later
reasons.
The overall reason is that you can easily loose sight of the forest for the
trees...get so involved in your writing that you loose track of your
direction; forget your audience; leave out important explanations or assume
the reader knows everything you know.
A book doctor can keep all this from happening, and clean up any mistakes you
made along the way.
A book doctor can also help you crystallize your project, choose the best
writing style for it, and point you to the most appropriate publishers for
your work.
NEED I SAY MORE?
If you want a quickie consultation about your writing project, contact me at
www.acappela.com . Go directly to the Order page and let's get started.
Patrika Vaughn (PvScribe), instructor
Subject: Re: Why You (Don't) Need One
Date: Mon, 28 December 1998 10:42 PM EST
From: JamesAB5
Message-id: <19981228224216.21163.00003557@ng95.aol.com>
PVScribe: <<Have you ever edited something for the umteenth time and missed
some glaring typos?
Everyone has. After a while you see what you expect to be on the page
instead of what's really there.
That's one reason for using a book doctor, but it is one of the later
reasons.
The overall reason is that you can easily loose sight of the forest for the
trees...get so involved in your writing that you loose track of your
direction; forget your audience; leave out important explanations or assume
the reader knows everything you know.>>
The easy solution to this problem is to put the manuscript in the drawer for
a couple/six months to get some distance from it so that you *can* see the
forest again. Certainly cheaper than paying somebody for something you can
do yourself.
<<A book doctor can keep all this from happening, and clean up any mistakes
you made along the way.>>
Any writer that can't fix the vast majority of mistakes on his/her own, isn't
likely to be able to produce a salable manuscript in the first place. It may
be unglamorous grunt work to check spelling and grammar throughout a
manuscript, but we owe it to ourselves to learn this skill.
<<A book doctor can also help you crystallize your project, choose the best
writing style for it, and point you to the most appropriate publishers for
your work.>>
All that is part of the writing apprenticeship. Try different styles,
voices, techniques, etc, until you learn how to most effectively use each
one. There's quite a bit of truth to the "You must write a million words
before you even *start* to understand writing" maxim.
And frankly, any writer who doesn't find the exploration of the different
aspect of this craft fun and exciting, isn't worth his/her salt much IMO.
It's definitely a challenge to find the right combination of techniques and
styles for a particular story, but when they all come together, there's no
thrill like it. Paying somebody to take away that responsibility for the
process of discovery cheats us as writers.
<<NEED I SAY MORE?>>
Not really. Truth is, 98%+ of the people published never used a book
doctor/consultant, and 98%+ of the people that DO use one never get published
anyway. It's a short cut for lazy people, or at least impatient people. You
aren't going to sell your first book, neither are you likely to sell your
fifth. But if you simply keep at it, keep stretching your abilities and keep
learning the craft and you'll do fine on your own, just
like all those authors currently on the bookshelves did.
<<If you want a quickie consultation about your writing project, contact me
at www.acappela.com . Go directly to the Order page and let's get
started.>>
Oy. What a waste of time. This business is NOT that complicated. If you
want to know who's publishing your type of book, browse through a bookstore
(real world or online) and take notes. Don't worry too much about hot
trends, because publishing is on a 2-year cycle and if you write for what's
popular now, you're dead in the water by the time it comes out (where are all
the "angel" books now for instance?).
A good book, well written, and presented with a professional query will still
get attention with good agents and good publishers. It's not easy, but
neither is it impossible, or only a dream available to people with
connections. Editors like nothing more than to find a new talent, and
there's no reason it can't be one of us. When we do it through our own
sweat, blood, and tears, more the sweeter.
Best,
Jim
Subject: Re: Why You (Don't) Need One
Date: Tue, 29 December 1998 12:49 AM EST
From: JAGA2
Message-id: <19981229004917.01012.00002696@ng-fq1.aol.com>
>The overall reason is that you can easily loose sight of the forest for the
>tree
Am I the only person to catch this? I have never held a forest, much less
"let go" of one.
Lloyd Brown
President, Jacksonville Area Gaming Assocation
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Wed, 30 December 1998 12:30 PM EST
From: PvScribe
Message-id: <19981230123033.01148.00003824@ng-cb1.aol.com>
Jay:
Thanks for your lengthy reply and your accurate perception about 'advertising
copy' for my 'perceived audience.'
I'm new at these boards and only slowly getting the hang of the kind of
dialogue that goes on here. Your comments are noted and appreciated...
but about BookDoctors:
As with body doctors, there's more to this than shoving prescriptions and
band aids. Diagnosis is the first step in ascertaining a book's health, and
this can begin in its embryo stage, while it is little more than a gleam in
its author's eye. The object is to deliver a healthy book that will enjoy
healthy sales, so the concept stage is the appropriate time for determining
if the book will be saleable. Many factors of art, craft and market
conditions enter into this. Further steps include determining the best
viewpoint and the most appropriate voice. Editing and proofreading
--'cleaning it up' as you call it -- are only the final steps, producing
effects similar to the penicillin a body doctor might prescribe.
A doctor's prescription is only as good as the diagnosis it is based on, and
a good diagnosis stems from years of study, practice and experience.
Patrika Vaughn (PvScribe), instructor
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Wed, 30 December 1998 09:35 PM EST
From: Jay is all
Message-id: <19981230213505.23603.00001498@ngol01.aol.com>
pvscribe >As with body doctors, there's more to this than shoving
prescriptions and band aids. >>
I agree, but ALL the steps you've outlined are the skills a novelist should
already have. Any wannabe writer who doesn't know how to handle viewpoint,
for example, is not even close to publication. Any professional editor will
tell them exactly that, then direct them toward resources or teachers—even
themselves, but as teachers, not book doctors.
>so the concept stage is the appropriate time for determining if the book
will be saleable.>>
I'll be polite and say I disagree... violently.... We've been talking
fiction, and in fiction, it's the writer's skill at placing words in a row
that sells the manuscript. Only the rank amateur thinks plot is primary, and
that's all that can be determined at the "concept" stage.
I'm sorry, there are niches for the trade of book doctor, as I've already
mentioned, but I've seen too many who prey on the hopes and dreams of good
honest people, whose only sin is to want to be a little too trusting.
I've talked to positively awful writers, who were ecstatic because they were
sure their work was going to be published... as soon as Edit Inc, or some
other book doctor finished "improving" it.
So... agreeing that the trained eye of an editor is a necessity, whether for
free or for hire: please name several published authors (whose work is
currently on the shelves) who require the services of a book doctor as
against an editor.
Jay
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Mon, 04 January 1999 10:02 PM EST
From: ItsEr time
Message-id: <19990104220209.21429.00007812@ng-fp1.aol.com>
Hi Jay,
I liked your response because I wrote a short story sent it to a publication
it was not picked. I, then showed it to someone who has been writing for
years, and the amount of errors she found in it were amazing, but she said it
was a good story, and that was all the balm I needed, and I am rewriting it
now. Encouragemet for a writer is gold, especially since most are filled
with self-doubt. Well, take care. ER
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Sat, 16 January 1999 09:53 PM EST
From: AnnieHawk
Message-id: <19990116215316.15064.00002186@ng-fw1.aol.com>
>I agree, but ALL the steps you've outlined are the skills a novelist should
>already have. Any wannabe writer who doesn't know how to handle viewpoint,
>for example, is not even close to publication
So true, Jay, excruciatingly so.
Annie
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Sun, 17 January 1999 12:13 PM EST
From: WTNLori
Message-id: <19990117121330.09887.00003029@ng-fi1.aol.com>
>>Any wannabe writer who doesn't know how to handle viewpoint,
>>for example, is not even close to publication
I agree with this. When authors head hop constantly, it drives me crazy.
Lori Crews
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Tue, 19 January 1999 11:11 AM EST
From: DeeDee4266
Message-id: <19990119111122.23224.00001421@ng28.aol.com>
But then again, you COULD just do the work necessary to become a really good
writer so you wouldn't need a book doctor. More effort, but you'd be more
proud of the result, don't you think?
DEE DEE 666
SPEAK UP TOS-FREE:
Writers' Haven
Writers: Screenwriting In General
Writers : The Mirror
Daughter of Integrity and Art
Storytelling
The Business of Writing: Q&A
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Tue, 19 January 1999 01:48 PM EST
From: Acappub
Message-id: <19990119134845.24807.00000678@ng136.aol.com>
Jay:
Here are Sol Stein's comments on this:
"I've been asked many times how come someone who has edited literally
hundreds of books, many by well-known writers, and has had numerous books
published, uses a book doctor, as I do. After I finish a draft, I need some
detached input as to what works and what doesn't. My last published novel
had eleven drafts before I submitted it to the publisher. He didn't ask for
any changes, but I wrote two additional drafts to please myself. During the
early drafts, I got valuable advice from more than one book doctor."
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Tue, 19 January 1999 04:20 PM EST
From: Jay is all
Message-id: <19990119162009.21271.00005918@ngol07.aol.com>
Acappub>""I've been asked many times how come someone who has edited
literally hundreds of books, many by well-known writers, and has had numerous
books published, uses a book doctor, as I do. After I finish a draft, I
need some detached input as to what works and what doesn't.
Point taken, if Sol is using them. I'd be interested in hearing Sol's
definition of book doctor as against an editor, though. It sounds like he's
using his as a critique service. The claims made here were for far more
broad a service, beginning before the first draft is complete, or even begun,
and sounding far too much like the Edit Inc for my comfort.
Anyone who claims they'll hold the hand of a wannabe and guide them to
publication has a hard time convincing me they couldn't take that same
expertise, and in roughly the same time, write something that's going to make
them a LOT more money (check the agent and book doctor classified pages of
Writers Digest and you can fairly hear the carnivores licking their chops).
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Tue, 19 January 1999 09:21 PM EST
From: Jay is all
Message-id: <19990119212159.00367.00000907@ng-fw1.aol.com>
wtnlori >I'm sure that there are some agents, editors, and book doctors who
have no interest in writing fiction. Being able to find problems in someone
else's novel doesn't mean that the person has the imagination or desire to
create a novel of her own.>>
Agents? Absolutely agree. Editors? Love 'em. But:
There is this person... this book doctor, who has no interest in writing
fiction, yet loves to tell others how to do it—in great depth. This is a
person who has devoted years to the intricacies of point of point of view and
character development—but not for themselves, no, for the love of humanity.
This is someone who knows the current fiction market, and what fiction
editors are looking for. Someone who can turn stones into a kettle of soup.
Uhh-huh. So why do I feel like I'm visiting the proctologist's office when I
get near this paragon of virtue? And why is that guy greasing up his fist?
When one of the published authors says, "This works for me," I listen,
because they know what they're talking about. When someone says, "I'm not a
doctor, but I hang around the drugstore a lot," I sure as hell don't let them
diagnose my ailments.
Subject: Who is Acappub
Date: Wed, 20 January 1999 01:12 AM EST
From: Roy9951
Message-id: <19990120011252.20890.00001062@ng119.aol.com>
Accapub, are you also PvScribe the WCU instructor, who is also a book doctor?
A writer is not a confectioner, a cosmetic dealer, or an entertainer. He is a
man who has signed a contract with his conscience and his sense of
duty--Chekhov
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Thu, 21 January 1999 09:08 PM EST
From: Sestina7
Message-id: <19990121210800.20141.00000713@ng-cf1.aol.com>
When Billy Abrams died, a lot of writers swallowed a big gulp.
Subject: Re: Why You Need One
Date: Thu, 21 January 1999 09:11 PM EST
From: Sestina7
Message-id: <19990121211109.20141.00000715@ng-cf1.aol.com>
Patrika,
Have you ever met JillAnn Kimble (ProEditGirl)? You two might have a lot in
common.
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds/Sol's Sister
Date: Sun, 24 January 1999 12:17 PM EST
From: JAXAshby
Message-id: <19990124121728.26546.00002185@ng04.aol.com>
<<Here are Sol Stein's comments on this:
"I've been asked many times how come someone who has edited literally
hundreds of books, many by well-known writers, and has had numerous books
published, uses a book doctor, as I do. After I finish a draft, I need some
detached input as to what works and what doesn't. My last published novel
had eleven drafts before I submitted it to the publisher. He didn't ask for
any changes, but I wrote two additional drafts to please myself. During the
early drafts, I got valuable advice from more than one book doctor.">>
Sol's sister was -- and may still be -- a "book doctor". Does that color
his viewpoint?? I should imagine. Me? I talked with her (I lived a couple
blocks from her at the time and her number was in the phone book) a couple
times. I declined her offer.
Subject: Re: Why You (Don't) Need One
Date: Wed, 27 January 1999 08:29 PM EST
From: PatJBell
Message-id: <19990127202921.02525.00000119@ng145.aol.com>
<<This business is NOT that complicated. If you want to know who's
publishing your type of book, browse through a bookstore (real world or
online) and take notes. >>
I discussed that in one of my articles on (The Publishing Industry with a
further discussion on how to determine whether the publisher might be an
appropriate one. It should give a clear notion of how to hone your search for
that "right" publisher.
Pat Bell
Cat's-paw Press
Instructor, Introduction to Publishing, Writers Club University
Cat's-paw Press, Where the Adventures of WilderÉ
author, THE Prepublishing Handbook: What you should know BEFORE you publish
your first book
Roughing It Elegantly: A practical guide to canoe camping
Subject: Re: A freelance editor responds
Date: Wed, 27 January 1999 08:33 PM EST
From: PatJBell
Message-id: <19990127203343.02525.00000127@ng145.aol.com>
I have advocated what I call a Friendly Reader approach, particularly when
writing a non-fiction book (okay, so I'm in the wrong tree here <G>). These
are readers whose judgment or taste you trust who will give you feedback on
whether you have said clearly what you thought you were saying, whether
something is missing or simply misplaced.
I also advocate that these Friendly Readers be objective -- and in most
instances, that will leave out friends and particularly relatives who may be
more interested in keeping you happy.
Pat Bell
Cat's-paw Press
Instructor, Introduction to Publishing, Writers Club University
Cat's-paw Press, Where the Adventures of WilderÉ
author, THE Prepublishing Handbook: What you should know BEFORE you publish
your first book
Roughing It Elegantly: A practical guide to canoe camping
Subject: Critique service and advice
Date: Sun, 07 February 1999 05:49 PM EST
From: RFitzs1041
Message-id: <19990207174945.09109.00001341@ng116.aol.com>
visit http://members.aol.com/rfitzs1041/advice/index.htm Offers free
critique service up to five pages. Advice and tips on writing, grammer,
style, usage. Response within 24-48 hours.
Subject: Hired Gun
Date: Thu, 08 April 1999 03:19 PM EDT
From: Bauknin
Message-id: <19990408151909.08965.00000153@ng138.aol.com>
I can help you with your manuscript. Just e-mail me (Bauknin@aol.com) and
place "Hired Gun" in the subject header.
I am an experienced, published writer and editor, and my rates are very
reasonable. I will not, however, take just any project. If I don't take it,
I may still be able to help you find someone who would.
E-mail me for help, and please be sure to give a brief description of what
kind of manuscript you are presenting.
-Doug Brunell
(Tattoo Savage, EIDOS, Fishwrap, The Lance, Gray Areas and many more.)
Subject: About Freelance Editing
Date: Sat, 10 April 1999 10:18 PM EDT
From: Kat91
Message-id: <19990410221811.15934.00001402@ng117.aol.com>
Editors Forum Chat on AOL, April 19, 1999
Topic: Freelance Editing
The last chat on this subject was fun and informative, and there were many
requests to do it again. We'll discuss how to start and run a freelance
editorial business, what makes a good freelance editor, and other issues
related to freelance editing.
Unless otherwise specified, protocol is not observed during our chats.
Please jump in and participate!
AOL chats begin at 10 p.m. ET, when we meet in the Workshop chat room in the
Writers Club. Anyone with AOL access can attend our AOL chats. Web chats
begin at 9 p.m. ET, when we meet in the Workshop chat room at
www.writersclub.com. You must be a member of the Writers Club to attend our
Web chats.
Please e-mail me if you'd like me to send you our April/May chat schedule.
Kimberly Rufer-Bach, writer, editor, & Host of the Writers Club's Editors
Forum
All you ever wanted to know about freelance editing: The Editors Forum's
Freelance Editing FAQ
Need an editor? Want to join the Editors Forum? E-mail kat91@aol.com
Subject: Some additional book doctors
Date: Thu, 15 April 1999 08:55 PM EDT
From: LaryCrews
Message-id: <19990415205508.20564.00002051@ng-fi1.aol.com>
If you want an excellent freelance editor, call my friend Laurie Rosin at
941-957-3348.
She is a freelance book editor responsible for 32 bestsellers before she
moved from New York to Sarasota, Florida and I recommend her highly.
Mention that you were referred to her by Lary on America Online.
(You can also Email her at LR Editor here on AOL.)
Laurie Rosin
Manuscript Therapy
1736 Hawthorne Street
Sarasota FL 34239
----------------------------------
Lorin Oberweger's editorial services company, Free Expressions, provides
complete editorial solutions to writers working at all levels and in any
genre of fiction or nonfiction. In addition to line editing of partial or
complete manuscripts, Lorin provides detailed manuscript evaluations that
focus on such elements as: Grammar, Language, Structure, Viewpoint, Conflict,
Characterization, Pacing, Dialogue, Description, Story-Systems, Subtext,
and Marketability, with a general view to making sure a client's work unfolds
as a compelling, cohesive piece. Lorin offers several editorial and
evaluation 'packages,' depending upon a client's specific needs. She strives
to make her services accessible to writers at every stage of their careers.
Lorin Oberweger is a professional writer and editor with more than a dozen
years experience in the publishing industry. She has served in an editorial
and/or writing capacity for such magazines as Woman of Power, SEE Magazines,
The Keys Guide and her own, RE:VISION, a celebration of art and language, as
well as for Learning Publications, an educational and human resources
publisher.
Currently she serves as manager of Free Expressions, as well as on the
Manuscript Evaluation Team of Write It/Sell It Seminars and Workshops. She
also teaches two poetry classes through the Campus department on America
Online, serves as Editor-in-Residence at the nationally acclaimed Writers
Retreat Workshop, founded by the late Gary Provost, and has been contracted
to help write and develop a series of books for middle-grade children. In
addition,
she has published poetry, short fiction and articles in nearly 100
periodicals.
Client references are available upon request. For a brochure/rate sheet or
information on receiving a sample critique of up to ten pages, please contact
Lorin Oberweger at:
Free Expressions
2420 W. Brandon Blvd., #198
Brandon, FL 33511
Phone: 813-684-7988
Fax: 813-689-6952
Email: freexprsns@aol.com
---------------------------------
If Laurie or Lorin are too busy, or you want to try some others, here are
some other freelance book editors (sometimes called "book doctors"), whom I
also recommend:
(You may mention my name in any correspondence with these editors.)
------------------------------
Patrika Vaughn
P.O. Box 3691
Sarasota, FL 34230
------------------------------
Veroncia Conte
631 Parkwood Avenue
Altamonte Springs, FL 32714
------------------------------
William Greenleaf
525 East Stonebridge Drive
Gilbert AZ 85234
------------------------------
Peggy Moran
Woodrian Press
#325
1173A 2nd Avenue
NYC, NY 10021
------------------------------
Jane Rafal
881 Stockton Road
Valley Cottage, NY 10989
------------------------------
Joyce Standish
2605 East Flamingo Road
Las Vegas, NV 89121
------------------------------
Toby Stein
45 Church Street
Montclair, NJ 07042
------------------------------
Do not hesitate to ask me any questions you may have, via E-Mail
Lary Crews (LaryCrews@aol.com)
Fiction Instructor
America Online
Lary Crews
Subject: Re: Some additional book doctors
Date: Fri, 16 April 1999 09:01 AM EDT
From: Lori Quest
Message-id: <19990416090101.08344.00001035@ng-cd1.aol.com>
Advertisting online like this is a TOS violation, Lary.
Are you ready for the rapture?
Subject: Should You Hire an Editor?
Date: Wed, 28 April 1999 06:58 PM EDT
From: JamesAB5
Message-id: <19990428185834.13482.00000017@ng-fb1.aol.com>
Found this article in the Writing & Publishing area of AOL (it's under
keyword "workplace"). It's under the Tips For Writers section. Very useful
area beyond these articles. I didn't know about it before, but from what
I've seen so far, very professionally oriented.
"Should I Hire an Editor?" by Leon Fletcher
Answer: No.
I advise writers to NOT to hire an editor....
------- rest of article at above link --------
Best,
Jim
Subject: Should I Hire an Editor?
Date: Wed, 28 April 1999 08:03 PM EDT
From: JamesAB5
Message-id: <19990428200355.13482.00000057@ng-fb1.aol.com>
Found this article in the Writing & Publishing area of AOL (it's under
keyword "workplace"). It's under the Tips For Writers section. Very useful
area beyond these articles. I didn't know about it before, but from what
I've seen so far, very professionally oriented.
"Should I Hire an Editor?" by Leon Fletcher
Answer: No.
I advise writers to NOT to hire an editor....
------- rest of article at above link --------
Best,
Jim
Subject: Re: Some additional book doctors
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 08:04 PM EDT
From: Catspawpre
Message-id: <19990506200457.25817.00000049@ng-ci1.aol.com>
I fail to see where this is an advertising bit. I see Lary's listing of a
number of freelance editors as a service to writers. In the second place, he
was not pushing his own work, which would classify as a real spam possibility
were he to have done that.
What he did is far closer to norms than a couple of posts I've seen repeated
and repeated in some of the other boards.
IMHO
Pat Bell
Cat's-paw Press
http://www.cats-pawpress.com/print/
http://members.aol.com/catspawpre/ToolShed.html
Subject: Re: Should I Hire an Editor?
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 08:07 PM EDT
From: Catspawpre
Message-id: <19990506200756.25817.00000053@ng-ci1.aol.com>
"Should I Hire an Editor?" by Leon Fletcher
Answer: No.
I advise writers to NOT to hire an editor...."
I would respectfully disagree with Leon on this point, at least in certain
instances. Increasingly I see with the (huge number of) smaller presses
(those smaller than the New York 17 or so) insisting that the primary editing
be done before they accept book manuscripts. I've seen a great many books
that went into print prematurely -- that should have had and would have
greatly benefited from careful editing.
Pat Bell
Cat's-paw Press
http://www.cats-pawpress.com/print/
http://members.aol.com/catspawpre/ToolShed.html
Subject: Re: Should I Hire an Editor?
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:27 AM EDT
From: WTNLori
Message-id: <19990508112704.29325.00001548@ng-cg1.aol.com>
Pat,
Your site is so cute. I love your logo; it reminds me of the two, sweet
kitties we've adopted since February.
Lori Crews
http://members.aol.com/larycrews/advice/index.htm
I am not young enough to know everything.
___James M. Barrie
Subject: Re: Should I Hire an Editor?
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:29 PM EDT
From: JamesAB5
Message-id: <19990508232911.21071.00001115@ng-ca1.aol.com>
"Should I Hire an Editor?" by Leon Fletcher
Answer: No.
I advise writers to NOT to hire an editor...."
Catspawpre: <<I would respectfully disagree with Leon on this point, at least
in certain instances. Increasingly I see with the (huge number of) smaller
presses (those smaller than the New York 17 or so) insisting that the primary
editing be done before they accept book manuscripts. I've seen a great many
books that went into print prematurely -- that should have had and would have
greatly benefited from careful editing.>>
That's still the publisher's responsibility, there's no way they can force
the author to get the ms professionally edited, they don't pay enough. And
any publisher, small press or not, that doesn't do its own copyedit pass,
even if it's just a readthrough by the primary editor, qualifies as
incompetent and unprofessional.
I'll provide the best copy-ready ms I'm able, and I'll have writing friends
go over it with a fine-tooth comb, but if a required edit is ever dumped on
my shoulders, I'll either do it myself, or tell the publisher to take a
flying leap. Also, if they're unwilling to point out any SPECIFIC problems
they'd like fixed, they're not doing their job at all. At that point, it's
up to the author to decide how those changes are going to be accomplished.
If you really mean self-publishing, then yes, if you're going to invest that
much money in your work, pay for as complete of a *copyedit* as you can get.
But if you can't get the basic structure in place on your own, you have
absolutely no business spending money on what's essentially a defective
product. Put it in the drawer and write something else, practicing and
improving your craft on your own.
Even long-time professional authors don't turn in perfect manuscripts. It's
up to the publisher to guide the final steps to meet the vision of their
line/press, and to abrogate that responsibility by dumping a crucial step
into the hands of the author when there's no guarantee that such outside
editing work will prove a benefit to what the author or publisher are trying
to accomplish, is patently absurd.
Best,
Jim
Subject: Re: Should I Hire an Editor?
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:58 AM EDT
From: GenreFan
Message-id: <19990517095832.23508.00001381@ng62.aol.com>
Agreed. It's just another responsibility, financial and otherwise, heaped
upon the writer. If I was to pay for editing, I would most definitely self
publish then. I might as well.
-J
Subject: Re: Should I Hire an Editor?
Date: Sat, 05 June 1999 09:40 AM EDT
From: RCHERIN
Message-id: <19990605094031.03824.00000804@ng-fk1.aol.com>
Bottom line, don't hire anybody but yourself to fix a manuscript. If you
think you aren't writer enough to polish it, seek another profession. I've
advised Leon that he should.
"Hacks laugh all the way to the bank. Artists starve." -- Lori Crews
Subject: Re: Should I Hire an Editor?
Date: Tue, 03 August 1999 10:06 AM EDT
From: WTNLori
Message-id: <19990803100629.25901.00000502@ng-cg1.aol.com>
By the time people are sending queries, they better be able to edit their
manuscripts, but in the early stages of learning how to write a novel it's a
good idea to take classes and read some of the great books out there about
writing. Bird by Bird inspired me. It's another good idea to have a
blueprint before one starts building the house.
Lori Crews
One on One for Writers
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