Fantasy Writers folder from the Fiction message board
Subject: Fantasy Writers folder
Author: lots of folks
Uploaded By: THopeB
Date: 10/30/1995
File: Fantasy Writers folder (303443 bytes)
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This is an archive file of the Fantasy Writers folder from the Fiction message board. These postings date from 7/21/95 to 10/26/95; enjoy!
8/27/56 5:33:21 PM Opening ÒSystem Log 8/27/56Ó for recording.
Subj: The Trials of Fallon
Date: 95-07-21 10:03:26 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
In writing my work, I have found that the book becomes your life. I find myself wishing more for the world i have created then for the real one. And yet, what is real, is this world not just the creation of human imagination?
Subj: Re:The Trials of Fallon
Date: 95-07-21 12:56:10 EST
From: LYacht
Posted on: America Online
Oh, this sounds like a board that I would like!
I am in love with fantasy. And, of course I've wished for my own world instead of the real one. Reality bites. I'm starting a trilogy, but can't think of a name for the first book. The trilogy is called "Nights of the Crystal".
Nightwind
Subj: Re:Lyacht
Date: 95-07-21 15:44:03 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Good luck with your trilogy, especially that first book. Have you thought about joining the mentors program in this club!
Subj: Re:Lyacht
Date: 95-07-22 12:52:28 EST
From: LYacht
Posted on: America Online
Mentors program?
Anyways, what's your book about?
P.S. I'm starting another book (I must be insane). Its called "The Eve of the Roses."
Subj: Fantasy, of course!
Date: 95-07-23 01:06:51 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
Well, this sounds like the right board to me. LYacht, aren't you Soljan's sister? I'm corresponding with her now. :) She says you are a great writer.
I have a problem myself. I was on a camping trip over the last week, and drove my family nuts. I kept telling them I was in one of my stories, and about all the things that happened in the woods we were in. Kept thinking there were Elves. My dad thought it was cool, but others do not humor me so much. I always wish I could be there instead of here. Not because it would be happier (bad things happening create character depth), but they would be more exciting. I'd rather be riding Elation (one of my dragons) then driving my brown station wagon to work everyday. Sigh... yes, reality bites.
Subj: help!
Date: 95-07-23 15:25:01 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
I need help comeing up with names for all races (mostly human elven and dwarf) if anyone has any ideas i would be thankful please e-mail me list the race and the name.thank you.
P.S.
on the main bodyof the letter put "to the dragoness EPDS10
so my family knows who it is for. thanks. A.K.A the dragoness
Subj: Re: Fantasy, of course!
Date: 95-07-23 15:38:05 EST
From: LYacht
Posted on: America Online
Yep, I'm Soljan's sister.
She's a pretty good writer. We both help by criticizing each other's work (believe me, it helps).
OKay, so I don't drive yet. But I still rather be riding Pharisya, or Korylia, or Tyralia, or....
You get the picture.
Nightwind.
Subj: Re:Lyacht
Date: 95-07-23 16:14:34 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
My friend, I know how you feel. Beyond Fallon, I have begun three other books and put many of them on hold. A good idea may cfome frequently or not, but reguardless, if you do not catch ahold of it, at least in some sense, it will be lost, and you will regret....
Subj: Re:Wrynyl
Date: 95-07-23 16:19:33 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome to my board Wrynyl! (a difficult name to type :))
I understand how you feel and believe me, you are not alone, there are others who dream of a better world and seek something beyond themselves. I was thinking much about this the other day and came to a sobering conclusion. Say you were riding your dragon to work, and knew of no other means. Would you not, perhaps wish to be within the airconditioned and I'm sure, somewhat smoother confines of a stationwagon?
Aye, it is easy to say now that that is not true, yet we always seem to want what we don't have.
What I am saying is dream of thy own world, live it in thy mind, but take not for granted what thou dost have, because that stationwagon, is the life you lead, for better or worse.
Take the energy that fuels your imagination, and use it to better this dismal world we have decreated through time- perhaps then your dragon may be born!
--The Wolf
Subj: Re:Welcome Dragonness
Date: 95-07-23 16:25:59 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome to my board! I am Wolfsrun, writer and poet when the winds favor my thoughts.
--In my newest book, the "elves" are depicted as those of Faerun. A good way to think of names, is to run a nonsense word through your mind and embellish it. Or do what I do, take a interesting sounding word and change it to suit you.
For example One of the clans of Faerun in my book are the Smyr'Syrillians of the Lowland Vale. I got this crazy name from the word "Serious." What I did was Say Serious...Serrrious...Serrillius....serrillia....serrilliun....then finally Syrillian. I embellished it with a post name Smyr to designate which clan of the Syrillians which is my name for a tribe of elves.
---Tell me how it is going along!
Subj: Re: Lyacht
Date: 95-07-23 16:27:31 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome, I am sorry that I haven't had a chance to welcome you to the board properly though you have posted here before.
---Wolfsrun
Subj: FANTASY FOR LIFE
Date: 95-07-23 16:31:34 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
It is nice to see that at least a few people have joined this population of Fantasy writers i have tried to bring together. It seems that there is so much interest, yet not so much support. So ask your questions, and I shall try to answer them, and perhaps you can answer mine!
Also check out the Searching For Fallon posting just a few lines down in Fiction Writers.
--Happy to hear from you all
--Wolfsrun
Subj: Hello !!! :-)
Date: 95-07-23 17:29:11 EST
From: RazIguana
Posted on: America Online
Hey there fellow writers, I'm a fantasy/sci-fi writer and a poet. I'm having a lot of problems starting a story, so if anyone has ideas, i'd appreciate it. I can't think up any plots, etc. Know a way to boost ideas?
catch ya'll later
Raz
Subj: new ideas
Date: 95-07-23 17:47:13 EST
From: AFMessingr
Posted on: America Online
I find that the best way to get new ideas is to use my dreams. I have noticed that sometimes I will have the same dream more than once over a period of years or months. If I have the same dream a second time, I remember it clearer and try to write it down as soon as I wake. This also makes me want to work an entire story around it and greatly increases my enthusiasm.
Subj: To everyone here!
Date: 95-07-23 17:53:30 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
Thanks, Wolf. You will go far with your attitude. You are right. But one thing- my car has no air conditioning. :o) Cars are nice, but I can't help but long for the smooth blue-green hide of Jasad instead of a brown car seat. Or Tarthin, Shevana, Calyse, Arthil, Eternity, ect. Not all from the same story... I would even like to ride a horse now and then.
I have only begun one story that I can call a book, although four others have potential if I can get my act together!! Thanks, Wolf, for creating this board. I have found a home (sniff, sniff). 8^)
To Razlguana- I will answer your e-mail soon. I just got back from vacaton yesterday, and I am still attemping to get everything done. As far as ideas, I get mine from dreams, books I read that spark something, or experiences that I've had. Take something you like, and write about it. For me, it helps to create a character, making him or her detailed and real to you. Live the character, think of things to happen. It will come together if you start small and work from there. Hope that's some help... my problem, alas, it that I can not stay wiht one idea- I have too many of them. Sounds like that would be good, but you ever try to write with over 30 ideas in your head? I kid thee not. :) I am taking the best ones now and working on them. One thing at a time!
To the Dragoness- I like to just take a lot of letters at random, maybe hitting them on my keyboard, then take out or insert letters as I think works right. For my name on here (Wrynyl) it was mostly just a combination of letters I liked.
Subj: Re:To everyone here!
Date: 95-07-24 00:27:01 EST
From: MGibson698
Posted on: America Online
I've been reading Fantasy Books for quite some time now. And although I have very little expierence at writeing I do have a good imagination. So far I've never really thought about a book, I still think I'm at the stage where short stories are much better. How do you organize your thoughts for you'r stories? I prefer to make outlines of places and events that I wish to happen. Ah well, see y'all later.
MGibson
Subj: Pressed Fairies
Date: 95-07-24 06:47:00 EST
From: Delta Wire
Posted on: America Online
Have you seen Lady Coddington's Pressed Fairy book? It is hilarious. It has well, pressed fairies. I don't know if it's worth money to buy, but it's a wonderful laugh to track down. It's an Edwardian ladies diary meets fairies with a twist.
Marie
Subj: Ideas
Date: 95-07-24 06:48:14 EST
From: Delta Wire
Posted on: America Online
I like to start with setting for my fantasy stories.
Marie
Subj: Re:Razlguana
Date: 95-07-24 07:34:56 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome, Raz!!!
If you are a writer and poet, this is the place.
Very popular now are psychological fantasies or horrors, just an idea,
-Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:afmessingr
Date: 95-07-24 07:38:13 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome AF, to my board!
Dreams are a vivid way of accessing our deepest imaginations- the place where our most hidden desires and fantasys are freed from the constraints of our conscious awareness.
Dreams are where I get some of my best works also!
-Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:To the dragon rider
Date: 95-07-24 07:41:08 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Glad you found a home here!
If you need any help/suggesstions on your book, or works in progress, don't hesitate to ask.
-HOrses are not so hard to find, and though I am biased, because I have rode them all my life, they are not hard to ride!!!
-Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:To Mgibson
Date: 95-07-24 07:43:56 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome to the board Mgibson!!! I am Wolfsrun and this place I created sounds like the right place for you.
--I find that first you start with a basic idea and then build on it until it grows beyond you.
Then you have to begin gathering data-maps, characters schetches, plots, subplots, villians, heroes, how magic works, what the level of technology is, etc... When you have all this, you can weave it together into an epic novel!
-just some ideas
--Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:Delta Wire
Date: 95-07-24 07:45:04 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome to the board!
Haven't read it, yet perhaps I shall check it out!
-Wolfsrun
Subj: the fantasy dilemma
Date: 95-07-24 08:18:29 EST
From: OC Adam M
Posted on: America Online
saifai writhers can make up any species they want to inhabit their worlds, but the fantasee writhers (with few x-ceptions) always go back to the same stuff (dragons, elves, david letterman, etc.). My question, if in fact I have one, is why do they do this? Why does fantasy in the US usually mean Generic Midevil Setting?
Zed
Subj: Re:the fantasy dilemma to OC
Date: 95-07-24 09:44:15 EST
From: MGibson698
Posted on: America Online
I think that fantasy tend to go back to what they think the people know. Some writers such as Robert Jordon writes some fantasy books that have no elves, dwarves, or any other fantasy stock. In fact in his book the only reference to stock fantasy creatures is the dragon. And even dragons are myth. Personally I am trying to write some sort of fantasy story and although I did plan to have stock fantasy characters I'm not so sure about it any longer. later
Subj: thank you wolfsrun!
Date: 95-07-24 10:05:50 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
thats an terrific idea! i can't thank you enough! i'll keep in touch and let you know how things are going. thanks again
EPDS10
A.K.A. the Dragoness
Subj: I'm behind you wolfsrun!
Date: 95-07-24 10:09:07 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
i'll help if you need it, and i'm behind you 100%! keep in touch!
Subj: hey raz!
Date: 95-07-24 10:11:42 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
I might be able to help you! but I need you give me some info. so I can help you. e-mail me
Subj: hey wolfsrun!
Date: 95-07-24 10:18:17 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
e-mail me sometime i have an idea on being able to talk to everyone at the same time why don't you set up a timeand tell every one to meet you
at cornerstone confences no one is ever there (except in the evenings).
EPDS10
A.K.A the Dragoness
Subj: I don't know what I'm re-ing
Date: 95-07-24 14:14:06 EST
From: LYacht
Posted on: America Online
OKay, for whoever it was that needed a place to get ideas.
A: Dreams (duh)
B: Do a craft (That's where I got the plot for a book I'm writing).
C: Take a nature hike
D: Do lots of reading.
Lots of others, but I don't feel like doing a lot of typing right now.
Nightwind
Subj: Re:hey dragonness
Date: 95-07-24 14:29:05 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Sounds like a plan--
Will get thinking on it and E-mail you soon
Subj: wolfsrun i got an idea!
Date: 95-07-24 16:11:18 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
just tell everyone to meet you at the fantasy corner cofernce at a certain time.(they some times have other people but not often) it would be kinda like having the whole room to ourselves.i'll e-mail you.
Subj: Horses
Date: 95-07-24 18:09:01 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
I rode for four years, but I suffered an injury that made me unable to ride for a month and a half. By that time, I had a job. :(. . . But there are no weekend riding places, and I don't have a horse, so I haven't riden in nearly a year. I could have taken up lessons again, but then there's my job... sigh.
To MGibson- I tend to agree, even though that's hypocritical of me, since I use all those things in my writing. But I am trying to think of more original things to use. I encourage you to do the same. Or, at the least, don't do the steriotypical (spelling problem, there... sorry) type of 'stock' creature- make them different from other things in other books.
Kelli
Subj: To ALL from Wolfsrun
Date: 95-07-25 10:49:25 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
The Draggonness would like to schedule a conference. This would allow us to all meet. Please answer with your thoughts on the matter.
Strange things happen on a full moon...
-Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:Horses
Date: 95-07-25 11:13:41 EST
From: LYacht
Posted on: America Online
I do ride. Every week. I ride hunt seat.
Still on the topic of what to ride to work or where ever, wouldn't it be easy to slide of a dragon? I, personally would rather ride a horse like Korylia. Excuse me, a simoray like Korylia. If Korylia was here she's whack me over the head for calling her a horse.
Subj: Re:the fantasy dilemma
Date: 95-07-25 13:18:52 EST
From: GLTN
Posted on: America Online
it dosent have to. writers can make whatever they want in there stories. medeviel settings are popular because theres more of a challange than just blasting everything into the next zipcode with a plasma rifle
Harped
Subj: everything
Date: 95-07-25 13:26:39 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I'm new to this board (to this area, to AOL, ...) but the conference idea sounds great.
I'm a "beginning writer." Several short stories, placed in the WD contest one year, but I'm just starting my first "on purpose" novel. (That means I intend to finish it. I've given myself a year to finish the first draft. Then maybe I'll go back to some of my "accidental" beginnings...)
My ideas usually start with an incident, either a dream or a scenario that appeals to me, sometimes with a sentence. (It's sort of a neat exercise to think up a really interesting sentence, and then try to build a story around it. As an exercise you can even borrow one from a favorite author. For instance, from Ursula K. LeGuin, "The king was pregnant." How many stories are there in that one???)
Anyway, hello everyone. This sounds like a great group!
MaryAnne
Subj: Whatever I think of! :o)
Date: 95-07-25 17:00:40 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
Jasad has a special saddle and harness. I haven't fallen off yet. :)
A conference sounds like a great idea! Anytime is fine with me. The only time I'm gone is in the morning.
To MGobble- I started my own book for the first time a few years ago. It took me about 2 months for the first draft, but it wasn't very good. It's better now. A year sounds like a good amout of time to give yourself. Good luck! (I would say "wecome to the board", but that's Wolf's job. :) )
See all of you later--
Kelli
Subj: Just imagination?
Date: 95-07-26 00:51:49 EST
From: Bozoatious
Posted on: America Online
If this world is only the product of our imagination, I challenge you to drive through a nice, thick, oak tree, walk on water, or treat a poop chute like a tunnel of love...the answers are crash, sink, and eat ****and die...
Subj: Re:Just imagination?
Date: 95-07-26 09:01:38 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
And yet we do all those things!
We carve our way through trees, make our homes with them and walk across the water upon vessels culled from thier life. Imagination is much more then just the outward actualization, it delves past what is obvious and refits it to suit the dreamer.
Who would have thought we would ever fly, but a dreamer who scanned the skies. This world is one of our imagination simply because of the fact that we made it what it is--through our dreams...and our nightmares.
-Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:Mary Anne
Date: 95-07-26 09:05:58 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Kelli's teasing aside (wrynyl) Welcome to the board!
Once again, it is nice to see another aspiring author step from the shadows to join her fellows. I am well through what could be called my first novel of any substance. It has already been a three year project, and it started from a simple dream.
Sometimes i find myself wising i had either more time or a greater sense of patience, there are so many different works I want to explore. Would be happy to hear about some of what you have written!
-Look forward to postings from you in the future!
-Will try and set up the conference soon, look fo an E-mail!
-Wolfsrun!
Subj: hello everyone
Date: 95-07-26 13:00:06 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
hi everyone! please e-mail me and tell me the most conveniant time for you(all who want to meet together) after i have figured out a reasonable time to meet i will get back to y'all. thankyou
Subj: please read
Date: 95-07-27 10:08:25 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
hello everyone please e-mail or post a message to wolfsrun or me telling us what time would be most convenant for you regarding the gathering
thank you EPDS10
Subj: Re:please read
Date: 95-07-27 14:35:06 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Double that for me--E-mail me with a good time for us all to meet in the writers conference room next week, I'll set up a conference!!!!
-Until then
Subj: Re:help!
Date: 95-07-27 18:07:29 EST
From: JeanLamb
Posted on: America Online
To the dragoness: One way I came up with a bunch of cool names was to go through the phone book and write down every 'different' name I ran into on a piece of paper, sometimes changing a letter or two to make it sound neater. This way, whenever I'm really stuck for a name, I can look through the list and pick one out that sounds cool. I also try to pick names that are different, and yet pronounceable (or give a handy nickname if a character ends up with a real freight train of a name for some reason). You might also pick a handy foreign language and start naming people variations of foreign words (though be careful--Guy Gavriel Kay named one of his good guys Aileron and I can never think of this person except as an airplane part).
Subj: Re:help!
Date: 95-07-27 20:02:07 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
Sometimes odd-sounding last names (from the phone book) can make interesting first names for fantasy characters, either as is or altered slightly...ie, in one of my worlds, a Nolan. (This is also very good if you write romance at all! :))
Subj: On-Line Coffee House
Date: 95-07-28 14:38:17 EST
From: Leemorr
Posted on: America Online
The Media City Center (a mall in Burbank, CA) will debut a web site in mid- to late-August. As an active part of the site we will have an On-Line Coffee House where poets and short story authors will have the opportunity to post their writing. If you are interested, I will be accepting submissions at my address (Leemorr@aol.com). If you have questions, please post them or ask me.
Thanks and hope to hear from all of you soon!
Subj: Re:please readI/.....
Date: 95-07-28 15:11:12 EST
From: JJsHere
Posted on: America Online
I'm interested.... setup a conference..... and let me know at JJsHere or I'll look in again to see if a time has been set.....
:::::::::::::::::::::::::: On we go ::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Subj: Re:JJshere
Date: 95-07-28 19:27:35 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome JJ, from all of us here!
I shall let you know through E-Mail, it shall probably be later next week so that the Dragonness may attend. it was, after all, her idea!!
Subj: Conference
Date: 95-07-28 20:43:58 EST
From: JKosmensky
Posted on: America Online
I'd love to be included in the conference. I'm not home before 6:00 p.m. eastern time M-F, but anytime next Saturday would be fine for me, or after 12 noon on Sunday, OR pretty much anytime the next week since I'll be on vacation that week (August 7) and will be doing a lot of writing (I hope).
Of course, it all depends on the Dragoness. I can catch you on the next one. Just please keep me posted.
Thanks,
JKosmensky
Subj: Fantasy - Sounds good to me!
Date: 95-07-29 14:27:49 EST
From: TLioness
Posted on: America Online
I'm working on a Medieval Fantasy right now, about a princess wanting to be a knight. Her father will not allow such in her country, but where her mother, the ex queen's from, they do. Her mother is a knight herself.
So she gets trained and goes to her mother's country.
Got the idea reading Alanna: The first adventure and its series. There aren't very many books or writings about female knights and warriors (fiction, fantasy, non fiction). I found some on Joan of Arc, but nothing else. Were there any more like her? If you know of other writings or books based on female knights or warriors in the medieval times, e mail me under TLioness.
Thanx!
TLioness
Subj: Dragonness?
Date: 95-07-29 14:29:45 EST
From: TLioness
Posted on: America Online
What an interesting name!
Subj: Re:Fantasy - Sounds good to me!
Date: 95-07-29 21:44:00 EST
From: BeBe 4 LC
Posted on: America Online
I know what you mean. Lately, I've been doing research on female warrior types, but there's not a lot of material out there. Unless you're dealing with whole societies like Amazons and even then there doesn't seem to be a great deal of information.
Beverly :-)
Subj: Female warriors
Date: 95-07-30 15:09:01 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
I know what you guys mean. In all my stories, there are women who can fight just as well as the men. If not better in some cases... But I am afraid I do not know of any other women in our own history, nor any stories of them. I have a story similar to TLioness', but in it, the girl's step mother wants Keala to be a lady, and all Keala wants to do is learn to fight like her brothers. It works out, in the end.
Kelli
Subj: Re:Hi Everyone!
Date: 95-07-30 20:14:52 EST
From: FMORI
Posted on: America Online
I'm a new user to AOL. I too have become enthralled with a world that I am creating. It seems to be with me constantly. I am always finding new areas on it, about it, etc. While I have started the story, I feel that my world is still too new to me. I would enjoy being included in your conference. Thanks.
FMori
Subj: Re:ALL YOU LADIES
Date: 95-07-30 22:55:40 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
You might want to try L. E. Modesitt jr.
His works on the magic of Recluce each have a women warrior in them. In fact, in his beeoks, the women are warriors and the men their consorts. The explanation for which is a Legend, that the men were responsible for the worlds earliest destruction and that they should never be in a position to rule again.
Check out The Towers of Sunset by the above author, I'm sure you would love it!!
-Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:Hi Everyone!
Date: 95-07-30 23:01:07 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
To FMori, BeBe, and the TLioness,
Welcome to the board!!!! (smile Kelli!)
I would be happy if all three of you stayed on here with your opinions and thoughts, questions and concerns!
Congrats on the work in process Sandy, we all have one in the works here, so don't feel alone!
We shall probably shoot for later this week to conference, perhaps on Thursday.
PLEASE E-MAIL ME BEFORE THEN AND TELL ME IF THURSDAY AT ABOUT 10:00 EASTERN STANDARD TIME (P.M) IS OK!!!!!
-The name is WOLFSRUN and I am always happy to answer any questions, thoughts or hear out any ideas!
I shall hopefully have yea or nay mail from thee soon,
Wolf
Subj: Greetings...
Date: 95-07-31 10:50:42 EST
From: ODunn
Posted on: America Online
Well, I tried to actually go through all the posts before I posted myself, but I'm just too impatient. I'm currently in the middle of a novel I've been writing off and on for the past ten years or so, so I just couldn't resist when I saw this folder. Hello to all, and this looks like a great board! Anyhow, I haven't come up with a proper name for the novel yet (the original was "The Great Medieval Adventure"; I've begun to think that that sounds a little too D&Dish, tho'). But, in the past few weeks the thing has morphed considerably; and I actually got close to ten chapters done in that month! (In the ten years I've been *trying* to write it, I think I got about three...) Sufficed to say, I'm starting to learn a lot more about myself and the little world I've created; I have to agree with Wolfsrun and several of the others here: I'd really rather be there than here.
ANYWAY, I'd just like to say that I'm happy to see some fellow writers around, and I'll try to throw in my two cents whenever I can. Later, all...
ODunn
Subj: Re:Fantasy - Sounds good to me!
Date: 95-07-31 17:24:02 EST
From: JeanLamb
Posted on: America Online
You might try reading the SwordDancer series by Jennifer Roberson, that's pretty good, or the Paksenarrion books by Elizabeth Moon (former Marine)--THE SHEEPFARMER'S DAUGHTER, etc. Also, the Herald's books by Mercedes Lackey feature women fighters.
Subj: Re:Fantasy
Date: 95-07-31 17:45:49 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
I can vouch for both Mercedes Lackey and Jennifer Robinson myself. Robin McKinley has writen some good fantasy with female fighters, too. The Blue Sword and also the Hero and the Crown both feature female lead characters who don't just sit around and scream.
I am smiling, Wolf! Thrusday sounds good to me, but I will mail you anyway just to be sure you remember. :)
--Kellog
Subj: Re:Greetings...
Date: 95-08-01 10:43:58 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Welcome to the board Odunn,
You seem to fit this place well.
We are discussing having a possible conference thurs night--
E-Mail me with your thoughts,
Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:EVERYONE READ
Date: 95-08-01 10:48:40 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
O.K. Lets try this conference on thursday night at 10:00 Eastern Standard time. We will use the Writers club conference room.
For any who need directions, hop astride your charger, or dragon if that be the case, and go into the writers club and then the writers chat rooms.
Click the WRITERS CLUB CONFERENCE chat room and then We shall see you there!
Until thursday at 10:00,
Wolfsrun
Subj: ADDENDUM
Date: 95-08-01 10:49:32 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
By the way, E-Mail me with yea's or nay's about the conference!
-Wolfsrun
Subj: Re:afmessingr
Date: 95-08-01 21:44:31 EST
From: SAVSpider
Posted on: America Online
Hello, I'm new here, too.
Subj: Re:the fantasy dilemma
Date: 95-08-01 21:46:16 EST
From: SAVSpider
Posted on: America Online
I think it has to do with old folk tales and the psychological impact those tales have on us...I mean, you say "dragon" and we all get a certain feeling. You say "leirusta" and..no feeling.
Subj: Re:wolfsrun i got an idea!
Date: 95-08-01 21:47:25 EST
From: SAVSpider
Posted on: America Online
How do I get to this conference?
Subj: II'MM BAAAAAACK!!!!!
Date: 95-08-02 18:23:13 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
HELLO DID Y'ALL MISS ME? sorry i'm late my flight back was delayed becase of the hurican. no need to wait for little 'ol me just make sure to fill me in just tell me when and i'll try to be there.
Subj: TLioness
Date: 95-08-02 18:26:58 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
it's not my screen name it's just a name i thought souned neat. thank you for your compliment. i'm sure your story will turn out great. i'm also writeing a fantasy novel.
Subj: Beverly!
Date: 95-08-02 18:32:45 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
have you checked out some info on joan of arc? she was quite a character she really exised along time ago . and if the metreal that your looking for is fictional i might be able to help you. e-mail me sometime
EPDS10
A.K.A. the Dragoness
Subj: Re:Fantasy
Date: 95-08-02 18:36:52 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
i read those books they're terrific!!!
Subj: greetings SAVspider
Date: 95-08-02 18:39:06 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
hello and welcome ! hope you enjoy your time with us
Subj: Need help w/trademarks...
Date: 95-08-03 06:50:49 EST
From: SFhopeful
Posted on: America Online
Greetings. I plan to write a series of novels based on a television program that ran several years ago. I need to obtain permission from the company that produced the show (specif. Hasbro) in order to use the names, likenesses, etc. that were used in the show, in my novels. Can anyone give me some advice on how to go about it? Also, can you tell me what the company will be expecting from me if these novels are published?
Thanks in advance.
Subj: CONFERENCE
Date: 95-08-03 21:12:57 EST
From: Wolfsrun
Posted on: America Online
Go to private room named WOLF
Subj: Re:Need help w/trademarks...
Date: 95-08-05 00:03:51 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
SFhopeful- What show, if I may ask? I would suggest writing to the company and asking them if you could have permission, and if so, ask how much they would expect from the profits of the books, if anything. Beyond that, I don't know what else you could do. You may have to pay a fee for using the ideas, ect. My guess is that you can find the address on a toy box, and if not that, at least a phone number to call. Hope I am of some minor help...
Kelli
Subj: New Member
Date: 95-08-06 22:48:19 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Greetings to all on this board. My name is Radiant, and I am newly come to this area. I hope that I will be welcome in your conversations, and that I will have something of value to offer.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:New Member
Date: 95-08-07 09:48:04 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
Hello! I am also new (well, somewhat new) to this area. I would love for someone to critique my work and to just talk with. My short is in the library, it's called Clouds. Please e-mail me with your comments.
Subj: Re:New Member
Date: 95-08-07 10:43:00 EST
From: FRENCL1
Posted on: America Online
Hi all!
I'm new here, myself. I've been writing fantasy for several years and am trying my hand at getting it all published now. I've comepleted about five books (three of which were written in grammar school and will only see the light of day after a lot of editing.) They're all fantasy. The ones from grammar school deal with elves, dwarves and the like. The other two (and the ones that are vying for publisher attention as we speak) don't have elves and whatevers. I've read the postings here and would like to put my dimes worth in.
Names: Go to a bookstore and buy the Best Baby Name book. It's got storks and things all over the cover and the salesclerk might look at you strange, but it is the best. It gives you literary names, and the old roots, and alternative spellings. It saves a lot of leg work.
Female Knights: Lackey and McKinley are the best I think at incorporating female fighters. It's funny that I read about that considering one of the old story notes I was looking at dealt with my own female knights. They're called the Israns, an order of knighthood for women, to balance the Order of the Gryphon and the Rose for men. It's interesting. A little of it's juvenile, but I'm working on it. Ashra, the main character and and Isran Knight, is worth saving. As is her rival the Lady-Knight Jaceryn.
Later!
Raechelle
PS What's this about a meeting?
Subj: No one thing in particular
Date: 95-08-07 19:18:30 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
Radiant, Rickellen. and FRENCL1- hello! We're glad to have you here. You are welome!
Raechelle- your story sounds like a cool idea! It definately sounds worth saving. The meeting, by the way, is supposed to be a meeting. We tried to have one already, but it fell though. We're going to get together and talk sometime. Speaking of that... Wolf, do we have a new day to meet yet?
Until later, friends! --Kelli
Subj: Re: The Quest for Home
Date: 95-08-07 23:05:05 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
I would like to tell you about my own story (currently shelved while I finish on a much more polished idea), if I may.
It begins with the world being destroyed, which prompts many people to think that perhaps I'm biting off more than I can chew. The plot is tied very closely to the method by which magic works, which I think is always a very important question for an author to answer if he's to get anywhere.
My main character, a young woman named Raine (I agree that baby name books are a wonderful source), is the last of a group of magic users on a dying planet, although she herself is unable to use magic. When her mentor dies, he leaves her with the job of finding a new place for the remnants of their people to live. In the end, this quest for a home expands to involve a feud between gods, those that rule each world and some that simple roam the universe, draining power from worlds contacted.
Would anyone have comments or suggestions to aid me in developing the details of this story? Questions are frequently best, since they require me to think of solutions to problems.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Introduction
Date: 95-08-08 02:38:35 EST
From: CWarner521
Posted on: America Online
Another new member here. I am 18 years old and have read fantasy since probably birth and have been writing it almost as long. I am now trying to get published. I would welcome any one who wants to actively correspond to discuss writing or whatever. Just e-mail me.
Subj: Re: The Quest for Home
Date: 95-08-08 14:03:47 EST
From: Da1bee
Posted on: America Online
Just passing thru and having read your plot, beg you to please sit down and get on with it! Sounds like it will be a great read!
:-)
Subj: Re: The Quest for Home
Date: 95-08-08 15:32:11 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
I promise, as soon as I've finished my current work in progress, and have fleshed out the problem areas in my mind, I will do exactly that.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Hallo All
Date: 95-08-08 17:07:48 EST
From: Sephas1
Posted on: America Online
Well I do beleive this is my first post on this base, however I have been lurking for some time... Wolf, I will get back to you, sorry for the delay, but am in the process of moving.
I have spent most of my time in the Twenty Something area, as I am a twenty something writer, however, I am the ONLY Fantasy writer in the group. I have been reading Fantasy since I began reading. (First book Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks) and have stuck with it since. I mostly wrote Poetry, but have had a story idea burning inside for the past ten years and have just now started putting it down on paper (Or burning it into a screen)
My main problem as a writer of Fantasy, is curbing my sence of humor (or at least those little dumb things that pass in my mind as humourous) Example: Two people from waring races finally get thrown together, when it comes time to eat, well one tries the others food, and exclaims "Tastes like chicken" It's a cliche and I know it, but it just popped into my head... Ah well.... As stated, I havn't been doing much writing latly as I am moving. But would like to share ideas and what not.
Shining Star, sounds like a good plot. However, how do you plan on incorperating all of the differant gods? Where will the story take place? One planet or many? Is this going to be a series (Sounds like it) and if so, will each book take place on a differant world?
A bit about the story I am writing...
A young half-breed, born of two warring races, a bastard son of a weak kingdom, and a young woman raised by wolves, get thrown together, when a wizard, suffering from Multiple personalities, decides to play god, well actually many gods, throwing thier world into war. It is the story of two men, one who will rule the world, and the other to create it, and a woman who will shape both of thier lives. Ranging from the rolling country side of Enath, a kingdom struggling to hold onto it's old religeon, which held nature above mankind, to the mysterious underground empire of the Zar. It is set in a time when the Gods themselves come down to lead men, and the animals rise up to protect what is thiers.
Now in order to write this the way I want to, it will be a series. My question, is it too big of a bite for an un published author to take? Also, is it a dumb idea (Actually I don't really care if ya think it's dumb, it means alot to me and I'll write it anyway! :-> )
Sephas
Subj: More than you can chew
Date: 95-08-08 17:57:48 EST
From: FRENCL1
Posted on: America Online
Shiningstar and Sephas,
As for biting off more than you can chew . . . I'm very familiar with that. My first try at serious writing was in the 6th grade. It turned into a horrible triolgy, that might just be salvageable. The gods came down in this case, too. That's tricky, but really cool when it works. Unfortunately, that time it didn't for me. My advice is don't get too carried away with your mythos that the story and characters suffer. I love to work on my worlds. I think it's fascinating to watch all the pieces of this different culture fall together in my hands. (Forgive me, I'm waxing poetic.) Unfortunately, you don't want to lecture the readers. As for series for the first timer, keep the first book on a basis where it can stand on its own. I don't mean tie up all the loose ends. If your world's good, you'll have a lot of loose ends and a lot of stories left. Make notes as you go along about future stories, but pretty much stick with one at a time.
Now, I'll hop down off my soapbox and ask for some advice on my own. I'm planning a trilogy called The Trinity. It's about - well, I suppose I should just post my "advertisement." I write them to get a feel for the story, but since this is growing horribly long I'll post again. I hope I'm not taxing anyones patience or eyes.
Raechelle
Subj: The Trinity
Date: 95-08-08 18:05:40 EST
From: FRENCL1
Posted on: America Online
Me again. Here goes, and I want anyone's honest opinion . . .
Three eras, three generations spanned by hundreds of years. Three ages of magic -- two waning, one beginning.
The Celtic priestess striving to keep the lore and rituals of the Old Religion alive despite the new missionaries militant attempts to Christianize the Isles.
The New World Witch, observing the pagan rights of nature with simples, tinctures, and love potions is persecuted for her harmless, but misunderstood ways.
A streetwise teen, experienced in the ways of the world, but ignorant of its lore and legendry. Still, she is drawn to the box in the shadows of the attic, intrigued by its mysterious markings, and despite not being a scholar she is fascinated by the book of odd symbols it contains, opening a door to the past and plunging herself into a maelstrom of power.
Three women, three generations, three eras in the skein of myth and magic, caught and bound together by the ties of blood and power. A power that refused to be altered or quieted, rising and striving through the centuries. Two lost spirits searching for a third through the dark, meaningless years . . . A Triad of Myth, A Triad of Magic, and A Triad of Hope.
Raechelle
Subj: Re:The Trinity
Date: 95-08-08 19:14:23 EST
From: ArielMRed
Posted on: America Online
Raechelle,
Although I have always been drawn to fantasy in my perusing of bookstores and the like, I have never actually tried my hand at fantasy....Your thoughts have sparked a fire in my imagination that I would like to express my appreciation for.....Helping me to remember the lost worlds just waiting to be found.....
May your magic never be lost....
Respectfully...
Ariel
Subj: Re:Hallo All
Date: 95-08-09 12:48:34 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Sephas,
The way it works is this: All power in the universe flows from the Ultimate God, a being no person knows exists, since He takes no interest in what happens on individual planets. There are smaller Gods (the equivalent of His offspring, since they originated from His universal power) who choose a planet, pour their portion of the universal power into it to make it habitable, then create worshippers (usually humanoid, but maybe not). These worshippers then feed the power back to the Gods by way of, well, worship. The more worshippers a God has, the stronger he is.
There are also some of these lesser Gods who don't choose a world, but simply roam the universe, and they get their power not from worshippers, but from simply draining planets they encounter to charred husks. On a planet ruled by a God, they have to do this sneakily, by subverting his followers to worship them instead.
On the world where my story begins, this is what has happened. The people are surviving on the dregs of universal power left in their world, and must find a new world before theirs completely dies. Of course, on the new world they choose, they find that the same thing is happening, and have to stop it.
I hope this clarifies things a little.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:Hallo All
Date: 95-08-09 15:17:05 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
You too??? Sword of Shannara was the first fantsy book I ever read, too! Never think an idea is stupid-I thought some of mine were, too, but I tried to write them and some turned out really good. Your ideas sound good to me. All of the ones I have heard on here are good! And don't worry about it being to big a bite- write what you want and what you love, and don't worry if it is too big. I worried a lot, then just gave up and started writing. I want to get published someday, but I write more for myself than anyone, so I am content to just write. And a sense of humor is good. Cliches aren't going to kill anyone, you know. :)
I can't seem to stay with one story at a time. I have 5 major projuects now, and about 25 or so ideas (but only about 8 of them are good...). But I do recomend taking notes so you don't forget things. I learned that the hard way. :(
Rae- your story sounds like a great idea. Of course, I could be biased on the fact that I am of an Old Religion... :) I am a pagan witch myself. (And I'm proud of it!!!). Stick with your ideas.
I better shut up now... I don't want to start in on religion. :)
Until later- bellicara!
Kelli
Subj: Willow
Date: 95-08-10 13:42:02 EST
From: Logan5555
Posted on: America Online
well, i don't read any fantasy, really, but i was wondering if anyone could recommend a good book similar to the movies Willow or The Princess Bride. I'd really appreciate it.
logan
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-10 23:42:06 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Both Willow and The Princess Bride are available in novel format. But aside from these, a good one is Evans' and Friesner's *Split Heirs*. You may also like Eddings' Belgariad and Malloreon series'.
Subj: Re:Trinity
Date: 95-08-11 00:51:31 EST
From: Injun84
Posted on: America Online
Sounds great, but save some stuff for our Anthology. I"m really looking forward to it. Also, see if you can get some more writers. I have a few Ideas to toss around with you.
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-11 09:38:43 EST
From: Jaylak
Posted on: America Online
There are two trilogies I'd recommend. The first is J.R.R. Tolkien's Ring Trilogy. This is really good, but very involved. The other is Terry Brook's Shannara Trilogy (there are actually two, so read the first one first). This is an easier read than Tolkien, but still just as good. If you liked Willow and the Princess Bride (two of my favorites), than you should probably go for Terry Brook's books.
Yours Truly,
Jaylak
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-11 13:41:26 EST
From: Logan5555
Posted on: America Online
Thank you all for your suggestions. i'll go and find those books you suggested! has anyone read Ender's Game by orson scott card? It's sci-fi, and really really good.
logan
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-11 15:10:11 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
I'm afraid I don't like Orson Scott Card much. He's certainly a very good writer, but he seems to have a great deal of trouble with his characterizations. It's very difficult for me to really care about his people, and so it's hard to really care what's happening in the story.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: orsonscottcard
Date: 95-08-11 19:46:29 EST
From: Logan5555
Posted on: America Online
But have you tried Ender's Game? i've tried some of his other books and wasn't impressed... but Ender's Game is top of the line.
Subj: Wolfsrun
Date: 95-08-11 21:18:25 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
Wolf, where are you??? You haven't been around in a while. For that matter, where are the Dragoness and LYacht? Where is everyone? Are we EVER going to have a meeting?
Missing you guys a lot,
Kelli
Subj: Re:orsonscottcard
Date: 95-08-12 10:28:18 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Yes, I have. Unfortunately, this seems to be a pervasive problem he has. I have a friend with the same problem. He has good, tight plot development and a clean, easy to read style, but he just can't bring himself to become emotionally involved with his characters. And, of course, if the writer isn't, then how can the reader possibly be?
Personally, I like Mercedes Lackey in that respect. One could definitely wish that she spent a little more time on plot, but I have never seen better, stronger characterization in my life. The Last Herald-Mage series affected me so deeply I cried for a week.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-12 15:51:09 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
Thank you, I am glad I am not the only one that cried when reading The Last Herald-Mage. (sniff, sniff...) Misty is my favorite author, and she does have the best characters of any author I have read. I think it's because she's not afraid to have really bad things happen to them. Bad events build a better character. Vanyel is the best example.
Kelli
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-12 15:53:58 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Unfortunately, Vanyel is whining pain in the neck. He lives the adolesent dream of being useless and worthless, and --poof-- he is revealed to have undreamed of abilities that make him the subject of awe. He doesn't work for them, he doesn't earn them. But gosh, does he ever whine.
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-12 21:03:47 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
You have no heart, Katryn... It's not his fault he's got a jerk for a dad. He does spend a lot of time in self pity, but he does get over it. Everyone spends sometime hating life. That's part of life. He did work hard to become the subject of awe. If he had just sat around doing nothing and whining, no one would have respected or feared him. And, you have to admit, 'Lendel's death was pretty depressing... so was Vanyel's own, for that matter... I'd better shut up before I turn this into the let's argue about Vanyel board instead of the writer's board. Are there ANY writers here? And I still wonder where the heck everyone is!
Kelli
Subj: Orson Scott Card
Date: 95-08-13 13:04:58 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I have to agree with both of you. Card doesn't do well with his characterizations, but Ender's Game is something special. Could be better, but it is the one Card novel everyone should read, in my opinion.
I posted a message earlier about Robin McKinley, but it seems to have gotten lost. She has strong female characters, very involving...If you haven't tried her, read The Hero and the Crown or The Blue Sword (Their usually in the kid's section at the library!)
I missed the first attempted conference because I didn't get online for a few days. Please let me know when we're trying again???
MaryAnne
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-13 13:18:50 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Just for fun, contrast the way Norton's adolescent protagonists gain what they need with the way Vanyel is *handed* everything. He already sits at the top of the social pyramid, and that's inadequate for him. This *is* a writer's issue. I never hand my characters much of anything. It makes them a yawn.
Subj: Re:Orson Scott Card
Date: 95-08-13 13:41:37 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Robin McKinley is quite good, as a matter of fact. Her characterizations are decent, although she has a way of looking at things that makes me feel slightly off-kilter. I'm not really sure why. Possibly I just need to read her a little more.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-13 13:44:52 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
I don't think I could see it as Vanyel having everything "handed" to him, considering what he has to go through every time anything good happens to him. After all, he only got those powers by losing the person he loved most in the world, under horrible circumstances. That's not my idea of a gift.
Perhaps if you've been an outsider your entire life, Vanyel is easier to understand.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-13 17:58:28 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Vanyel's a brat. He's no outsider. He's as inside as one can get: money, looks, position, and enough superficial charm to glide by on. I must have thrown the book across the room twice during the 3 years it took me to read it all. I went to school with a *lot* of Vanyels. Brats.
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-13 20:12:14 EST
From: Logan5555
Posted on: America Online
what's this book you all talk of? Good enough to spend real money on and buy it?
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-14 14:52:27 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
Logan- Personally, they were the best books I've ever read. But then, maybe I'm too much like 'Lendel and try to see beyond what others do... and maybe I've spent too much time trying not to slash my own wrists... so yeah. You do need to be an outsider, and someone who has been though a lot of things that suck in order to understand. I'll admit Vanyel is a brat on the outside. I even threw the first book once because he was sch a jerk. But I changed my mind as the book went on.
Logan again- I am working on getting back to you. :) I need to find a story that I think is good. Be warned that nothing is finished that is good...
Kelli 8^)
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-14 15:34:27 EST
From: Logan5555
Posted on: America Online
no problem kelli
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-14 16:34:08 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Borrow it. It's worthy of study in comparing it to the contemporary society it reflects (a tough life is being denied all the free time you want, and being expected to grow up)
Subj: Re:Everyone
Date: 95-08-14 22:09:34 EST
From: JHONEILL
Posted on: America Online
Just Telling you all that I am back.
For all the new members, I am Wolfsrun, and this is my board.
If you have any questions about writing, etc...
don't hesitate to E-mail me!!
-Wolf
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-14 22:10:27 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
I'd have to say borrow it, too, only because I don't know what you like to read. But if you like the story I just sent you, Logan, (or start of story, to be more exact...) I would check it out. Borrowing could be a good idea, unless you are a compulsive book collecter, like me. My copy of Magic's Pawn is falling apart after 11 readings... you don't have to comment on that, Katryn... I do see where you are coming from, even if I don't entirely agree. :)
Kelli
Subj: WOLF!!!!
Date: 95-08-14 22:13:02 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
You are back!!! Yippee!!! Ok, I'll get back to normal... thanks for answering my e-mail. :)
Kelli
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-14 22:25:48 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
While I agree that Lackey is a good writer, I have to say I agree that Vanyel is a brat. My opinion is that instead of a long emotional journey into manhood, she should have given more attention to his physical journey (not just sexual). It would have made the story more realistic.You can't expect me to believe that Vanyel made it on his looks in the type of society he lived in. I guess that's why he dies.
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-15 22:41:23 EST
From: FRENCL1
Posted on: America Online
Alright, I'm back!
First of all, I would like to thank Shinigstar and Wrynyl for their compliments on my Trinity idea. (I am not a pagan of any sort, having been raised a Roman Catholic, but I love mythology.) Now, to the present.
I love both Mercedes Lackey and Robin McKinley. HERO AND THE CROWN happens to be my favorite book, and THE LAST HERALD-MAGE and the other Heralds, run a close second. Granted, Vanyel is a whiner in the beginning, but I also agree that the price he paid for his powers to be one of the highest in the world. They were just not "handed to him." He went through phychological, physical, and emotional hell to both get and master them. Within was an idiot and Treesa was no better, and both 'Lendel and Savil were blind. Lackey pulls so much out of her characters it makes you want to weep. PAWN was the first and only book that ever made me want to cry. I usually don't get that worked up over them. Laughing yes, crying no. I nearly danced when I got to the third MAGE WINDS. (Yippee! Vanyel's back!) I'll stop, I don't want to spoil anything.
As for McKinley, her style I think is designed to set you a little off kilter. It's distance and yet at the same time very tied into the characters. It seems to be a mixture of the classic style of literature and the more modern, in the character's head everything they're thinking, style. I love her. I don't know why, but the image of Aerin trudging up the tower with a surka rash is a perfect example of her unique style. It sounds so dark and serious, until you think - "Hey! Great heroes aren't supposed to get rashes on the way to face the great evil!" Such a mundanity really drives home the perspective.
By the way, if you see someone here by the screen name "Aerae", it's me. I finally got my own, so I can return my father's.
Raechelle
Subj: Same subject, different title
Date: 95-08-16 00:29:53 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
This is short, but Rae, you didn't ruin anything for me as far as Mage Winds, but I don't know about anyone else. I fliped though when I got the third book and looked at the pictures, and managed to recognize him and Stef. That was the fastest I ever read a book...
Kat- thanks for the mail, since this whole big mess is probably better off there... I haven't read it very closely, but I will and give you a real response. I won't go into any of that now, though.
Rae- congrats on your own name!
Kelli
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-16 13:11:50 EST
From: Jaylak
Posted on: America Online
Are you kidding? I just read Ender's Game a few weeks ago, even just got done reading the next one in the series, Speaker for the Dead. Personally, even though Ender's was good, Speaker was that much better. Card really knows how to develope a main character. I can not wait to read Xenocide.
Jaylak
Subj: OAKIAN,ALYS and BRYN
Date: 95-08-16 14:01:36 EST
From: NickR123
Posted on: America Online
Are the main Characters of a (HOPEFULLY) series. If anyone would like more info on them, or would like Ideas to write, E-Mail me.
They live in a mideival world where machines are powered bu MAJI-TECH,
OAKIAN is a orphaned-at-birth teen, he goes to the Kolighan Alchemy academy, where he is top of his class,
ALYS-(pronounced Alice)Is a teen girl who goes to the academy as well, she and Oakian are "Just friends" but......
BRYN-(NOT Bryan or Brian) Twin brother of Alys, he is a captain of the Milita in the town, defending from anything from Orks to Zikeworms.
If you would like to use these characters E-Mail me for a more detailed description
Subj: dragons on the mind...
Date: 95-08-16 16:59:05 EST
From: EPDS10
Posted on: America Online
hi! anyone here have pictors of dragons or know where i could find some please e-mail me. thank you and hello everyone that is new.
Subj: Re:dragons on the mind...
Date: 95-08-17 09:42:27 EST
From: Sephas1
Posted on: America Online
As far as Pictures of Dragons go, you might want to pick up a book by Borris Valencia (Sp) ... He is an incredible artist who paints many things in the fantasy realm. From landscapes, to nudes, he is really quite good.
He is really the only "big name" artist I know of who does Dragons. However, I am sure there are plenty out there.
Come to think of it, it is quite funny that no other mythological beast has captivated the human race quite like Dragons. They range from Benevolant helpers, to ferocious creatures demanding virgin sacrifices. I don't think any creature has ever been depicted in as many differant shades than the dragon. (Kinda neat when ya think about it eh?) :-)
Seph
Subj: Re:dragons on the mind
Date: 95-08-17 10:56:24 EST
From: Aerae
Posted on: America Online
Depending on what kind of dragons you want, there's some books, in my library at least, that might help. It's simply called DRAGONS. I can't remember off hand who it's by, but there is also a FAIRY along the same lines. They're pseud-factual, oversized, with lots of pictures. There's also the McCaffrey guides. THE GUIDE TO PERN, and THE PEOPLE OF PERN have some goo pictures in them. Look in the children's section of the library or the mythology. They hide a lot of good stuff there. Hope I helped a little.
Raechelle
PS I just have to say that this has been the only board I've posted on, since getting AOL, where the people have been so responsive to newcomers. I really enjoy talking to all of you. Maybe we should try to get a live conference together soon? Any reaction?
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-17 13:30:33 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
No, Katryn, a tough life is being expected to grow up into something you aren't, and can't ever be, and being hated for it. Perhaps you should go with Orson Scott Card. He never expects you to feel anything for his characters.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-08-17 13:32:48 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
As a matter of fact, Kelli, I have a friend who read the books once, then immediately gave them away. It seems that she found the story sad enough that they precipitated an emotional breakdown. NOT recommended reading for anyone who's emotionally unstable.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-17 13:37:36 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Well, perhaps it really depends on you and your perspective. I have friends who adore Card and his work, and I know others (myself included) who find him deathly boring. From what I can see, he and Lackey are almost complete opposites. He seems more plot-driven, and she more character-driven. Personally, I would rather strike a happy medium, but if I must read one or the other, I prefer character slightly over plot.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: The Last Herald Whiner
Date: 95-08-17 18:37:15 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
But back to the youth of Mr Ashkevron. Poor dear, he doesn't like life at the top of the social pyramid. He doesn't want to be responsible for the family business. So what does he end up doing? Spending his life doing much the same kind of thing he would have done *anyway*!
Now, why all the sympathy for poor, pitiful, put-upon, weepy Vanyel? What about the hordes of people in the underclasses of Valdemar who serve those at the apex of the social pyramid? Do you think any of them woke up one morning and thought, "Gods! I want to change sheets at Haven! I want to wash the dirty underwear of the Heralds!" Do you think any of the underclass in Valdemar ever think that they *want* to spend their lives in backbreaking labor plowing, sowing, reaping, sweating and never having anything to show for it? Does anyone offer *these* people a choice? Haven seems full of almost invisible servants who take care of everything. And the poor hertasi! A whole race of sentient slaves who just *love* to serve the needs and whims of humans! Do you suppose they all come down to the Birdbrothers' birdhouses of an evening and SING for their "betters"? (Maybe they even put on blackface and hang Spanish Moss from the trees, too. I'll bet they play a mean banjo!)
Subj: A subject
Date: 95-08-17 23:03:44 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
Radiant Shiningstar- I prefer characters myself over plot, but a happy medium would be nice.
And I have to add one thing, and that is that the social pyramid does not seem like the best place to be. Everyone being fake for no real reason and all that garbage... why wouldn't he not like it there? I would also like to add that he did not spend his life doing what would have done anyway. He probably was unstable enough to kill himself or run off or something else along those lines. Instead he was serving his kingdom and saving lives. How are those the same?
Bright Blessings, all~
Kelli
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-18 17:32:02 EST
From: Logan5555
Posted on: America Online
jaylak, i totally agree with you. Ender's Game was wonderful. Why are we still typing under Willow? If we are, lets talk about it!
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-18 18:19:50 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
I just watched it again yesterday! For the 10th or something time. It's a great movie to watch, since there are different things you notice every time you watch it. And parts of it are funny. Like when Madmardigan thinks he's cool because the bad guys all run off but really they are scared of that big monster behind him. The smug look on his face... Since you said to talk about it, I am. :) Really, though, it is one of my favorite movies.
About getting together and meeting- everyone start posting times you could come if you are interested.
Kelli
Subj: Love interests in Fantasy?
Date: 95-08-18 21:20:05 EST
From: Teramis
Posted on: America Online
I'm a recent first novelist (sf), now planning a second project (fantasy), and have been advised by "older, wiser" heads to be sure to include a love interest. "Love interest?" says I. "WHY?"
I'm one of those readers who prefers the action, adventure, magic, the challenges the protagonist must overcome, and seeing the main character grow. I don't believe any of the elements of good storytelling inherently require that a love interest be present, whether center stage or as a subsidiary "boy gets girl" thread in the background.
Now, am I just being naive here? Is this a reality of the fantasy book buying market, that most readers really do want a splash of romance in their tale? Do YOU? Or are there more readers out there, particularly women like myself, who are seeing background love interests because it helps "sell the story", but who could just as well live without it?I'm wondering if this is a prejudice born of publishing myopia, or a real need based on real buying habits.
My work in progress is a coming of age tale, but again, I feel there are other things besides discovering Love that mark coming of age (certainly that _mihgt_ be an appropriate element, but depending on how protagonist grows, it might not matter one whit.)
So - what's YOUR preference? Generally, or concerning a coming-of-age tale? Fantasy books must have/should have love interest element? Or could you just as soon do without?
Subj: Social Pyramid
Date: 95-08-19 00:14:10 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Only hermits do not live on the social pyramid, Wrynyl. Humans are creatures who cannot avoid hierarchies even when they try--haven't you noticed how the bullies always end up running organizations that aren't supposed to be based on hierachies?
If Vanyel had succeeded his father, he would have spent his life hacking & slashing, attending to the diplomatic affairs of the family, and socializing with his particular class. How different is this from being part of the BATF of Valdemar, in terms of activities and responsibilities? He certainly didn't leave his social class behind. Is attending to the affairs of the Valdemarian BATF inherently more worthy and noble than attneding to the affairs of a smaller geographical area? I don't think so.
Subj: Re:Love Interest in Fantasy
Date: 95-08-19 20:39:28 EST
From: Aerae
Posted on: America Online
Teramis,
Personally, I'm a hopeless romantic. I like a story a little better when there's some sort of romantic interest between characters. They don't have to be the main characters (in fact I've seen the love interest work as wonderful comic relief), or it can just an awareness not all out proclaimed "LOVE." I admit that I have read some very good books without it and they've worked wonderfully, but like I said I'm a hopeless romantic. I'll stick with doing it that way, but you go with what you're comfotable with. I would suggest though, that there be some sort of awareness for the opposite sex (or the same, whatever your character's preference) seeing as how that it is an important part of coming of age. Good luck!
Raechelle
Subj: This is great!
Date: 95-08-20 22:44:38 EST
From: LB Amber
Posted on: America Online
I'm glad I finally found my way around to this area, now I'll have to stay on aol!
One question: I have submitted ouline & chapters to Del Rey (Nine months ago, their kinda slow.) It was the first book in a trilogy, and completely dependent on the two books that follow. I am now just going on the assumtion the Del Rey will not want it and trying to decide what to do next. I have heard advice that I should not mention to a publisher or agent that it is part of a trilogy, and let them find out when they get to the end. I think this is somewhat dishonest, but I don't wnat to spoil my chances with negatives right away. What should I do?
-Laurel
Subj: Lost it
Date: 95-08-21 09:16:31 EST
From: EKathy
Posted on: America Online
I admit it has been a few days since I've looked - - But where is the Prof si/fi / fantasy post ???
If it has passed away, I'd like to say a few words over it or something.
Don't you folks even put up a marker?
Kathy
Subj: Re:Trilogy
Date: 95-08-21 11:07:11 EST
From: Aerae
Posted on: America Online
Laurel,
Say it's a trilogy! They don't like surprises and the last thing you want to do is get black listed for ticking off a big publisher. They're a very tight knit and clannish. I'd suggest telling them, tactfully and use all the creativity at your disposal, that you have written two more books with these characters, this world, etc. Then, I'd suggest if they're interested find an agent fast. Feinstein did this (he's a writer in my area who managed to get a contract for three books and an agent in one fell swoop. Granted this was after trying to find a publisher for three years. When it rains it pours.) so I know it works, but do say it's part of a trilogy. Good luck, one book is hard to place - I don't envy you the three. Let us know how it goes, Del Rey has one of mine too.
Raechelle
Subj: re: Trademarks
Date: 95-08-21 16:02:42 EST
From: LB Amber
Posted on: America Online
On August third SF hopeful asked about using tradmarked/copyrighted characters from a tv series in a story.
From the den of lawyers in which I live, and from my own research, I can tell you that you can WRITE whatever you want. The agreement to use those characters would have to be between whoever was going to PUBLISH the work and the owner of the characters. (Unless you were planning to self-publish, of course!)
I would recommend sending query letters of your idea to some publishers who specialize in that sort of book (one based on tv series.) TSR and Roc come to mind. They would handle the legalities then. I think it's a great idea, and you ought to strongly sell it to a publisher. Research how to write query letters first, though. It can be tricky.
Good luck!
-Laurel
Subj: re:female fighters &storytelling
Date: 95-08-21 16:04:15 EST
From: LB Amber
Posted on: America Online
Just a few ideas for you all.
1) About female fighters: Why there are so few: study some athropology and varied human cultures. What is it that makes females female? They have children! So most women, most of the time will be busy with that. This is also why there have never been (do the research) any known matriarchal societies. It drives me crazy when writers just forget basic biology and send women off to do all the ruling and fighting. L.E. Modesitt came up with a good basis for his woman-ruled society, and wrote a great book. Rasing children IS both powerful and critically important. It doesn't mean that women are any less valuable if they don't do the exact same things as men.
2) I would be cautious about talking about stories before you have finished writing them. It takes some sort of internal drive to get a writer to sit at that tiresome keyboard and tap it all out. If you tell someone the story before you have done the hard business of writing you may lose some of that energy you need. These all sound like great stories and I want to see them finished!
Hope I'm not barging in where I'm not welcome, but I've made so many mistakes that I don't want to see others do the same. I love this place; writing gets so lonely. Thanks all!
-Laurel
Subj: Re:Re:Trilogy
Date: 95-08-21 16:05:38 EST
From: LB Amber
Posted on: America Online
Thanks for the advise, Reachelle- that was what I felt like doing.
-Laurel
Subj: Re:re:female fighters &storytell
Date: 95-08-21 18:34:52 EST
From: Teramis
Posted on: America Online
>This is also why there have never been (do the research) any known
>matriarchal societies. It drives me crazy when writers just forget basic
>biology and send women off to do all the ruling and fighting.
I'm a student of Anthropology and _have_ done the research. African queens commanded fighting forces of women, some of whom were encountered by Mediterranean folks who traded with Africa. Even today there persists in Portugal a town ruled by women - it is a pocket isolated culture which is not only matrilineal, unlike the rest of Portugal, but firmly ruled by women. They hire, they fire, they make the business and governmental decisions, and anthropologists surveying women in
this matriarchy have determined the attitude of the females is that men are given to gossip and flightiness and are not really suited to be in charge of things. The name of the place evades me right now, but it is a
well documented oddity.
The problem of determining whether earlier cultures were matriarchal or not - even though there is evidence they were matrilineal, dominated by goddess worship, and had queens and priestess with temporal power - this problem persists and is an issue that anthropologists do NOT agree upon, especially given the newer women's perspectives that have trickled into the discipline in the last 30 yrs. Read "The Chalice and the Blade" for a good overview on whether and when matriarchal societies really did exist. There is more evidence for this than perhaps you are aware of.
Subj: Re:re:female fighters
Date: 95-08-22 02:02:30 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
From some of the anthropology texts I have read, there is evidence of pre-Christian matriarchal societies. I have a female character in my novel who is a WARLORD so to speak (warlady? I don't think so.). And she will be a reigning High Commander for one of the most powerful armies in my world. Yes, biology suggests that women are physically less powerful than men. But what about other areas in which women can make up for such a *weakness*, such as intelligence. Or perhaps a smaller, petite woman is quicker than a heavier, taller male. Historically speaking you are probably correct, there are few *documented* female fighters. But this is fantasy. Trust me, take it from someone who ranked highest in her swordmanship class, being one of two women in a class full of men. A woman can be just as good at fighting as any man. Besides, if a woman really wanted to do nothing more than care for her children, wouldn't she want to be able to protect them? Especially in worlds where raiding and marauding can happen so readily? It's all a matter of common sense.
Zahrima
Subj: Re:This is great!
Date: 95-08-22 12:51:27 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Laurel,
When you are first starting out, it is very important for each book in a trilogy or series to stand on its own. This is, of course, quite important anyway, but if you're a brand-new writer, it's likely that publishers are not going to want to be dependent on you to be prolific at this point.
You can certainly mention in passing that the book is intended as part of a trilogy, which you are in the process of completing. But bear in mind that they may not want to commit to that right off, and make sure that your book can stand alone if necessary.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Female Aggression
Date: 95-08-22 19:25:53 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Anyone who believes aggression and competitiveness is unique to males and females just sit about nurturing should study animal behavior. No one ever told my mares that it was unladylike to outrun the boys and I never gave them that idea. They'd run like hell without a whip touching them, just for being asked to do it, and another horse to run down, male or female.
It's all a matter of opportunity...
Subj: Various comments
Date: 95-08-22 22:42:01 EST
From: LB Amber
Posted on: America Online
Wow! I never expected such a response.
First, my source for the lack of matriarchal societies was the Encyclopedia Brittanica. I just happened to see the heading (I was researching magnetism) and I thought it was intersting. I have since gone to the library and done what reasearch I could but I didn't find anything definitive there. If anyone can cite specific texts -unbiased, if possible, most researchers seem to feel thay have a personal stake in this- I would love to hear them- e-mail if you like. I am personally quite interested in various types of government, both real and theoretical.
Also, please do not ever think that I am of the opinion females are in any way inferior to males. I do not usually classify people by groups, so female/male comparisons seem meaningless. I merely thought this was an interesting fact and have wanted to know why societies work the way they do. I never ever meant to offend anyone. [Oh, and Zarhima- way to go with the swordsmanship! I have wanted to learn that forever, I think.]
Radiant Shiningstar: Do you think that if the trilogy was finished a publisher might be less hesitant? Of course, will all the time Del Rey is taking, it probably will be before I hear back from them. Also- beautiful name!
Thanks for all the comments.
-Laurel
Subj: Re:Various comments
Date: 95-08-23 12:36:07 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Yes, I do think that they would be less hesitant if it were actually finished. The science fiction-fantasy world seems to love trilogies and series. However, as a matter of good writing, your books should still stand individually, even if connected. The old "cliffhangers", where a radio show would leave its hero in distress until next week, are no joke when one is having to wait several months for the outcome instead of a few days.
I'm glad you like my name. It is a bit unusual to live with, though.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Just Everything
Date: 95-08-23 14:31:36 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
Zahrima -- What kind of swordsmanship? I've been a competitive fencer for years (foil, now learning epee).
I also would like to get that list of references on matriarchal societies. Most of what's been discussed I knew in a general way, just from reading a lot, but I'm working on some ideas where a specific reference or two could be really useful...
Also, if you're interested in warrior women in our own history/society -- Antonia Fraser wrote something, I think it was called Warrior Queens. Really interesting, since she included some women you would not normally think of in that context. Just a different way of fighting...
Thanks
MaryAnne
Subj: Swordsmanship
Date: 95-08-23 15:24:59 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
MaryAnne,
I have taken fencing, and epee. Currently I practice Kindo where we use Shanai. It's Japanese. I also participate in SCA tournaments and live fantasy roleplaying where my character is a swordsman/thief.
Zahrima
Subj: Just a side note....
Date: 95-08-23 15:45:24 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Just a quick correction to my last message, *foil and epee fencing*. I figured I better make the distinction considering epee is also a form of fencing.
:)
Zahrima
Subj: women warriors
Date: 95-08-23 16:35:58 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Antonia Fraser's book is very good.
Subj: Re: matriarchies
Date: 95-08-23 23:49:29 EST
From: Alissa94
Posted on: America Online
There were apparently truly matriarchal cultures in Europe around the time of the Neolithic Revolution, before the invasions of the Indo-Europeans. The person who has done the most work in this area is the archeologist Marija Gimbutas, who has excavated many of these Old European sites. Her books are "Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe," "The Civilization of the Goddess," and "The Language of the Goddess." Very exhaustively researched. The book The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler, mentioned before, is a kind of work of theoretical political science based upon an understanding of the matriarchal cultures Gimbutas has brought to light. It's also interesting. These cultures were real, even though any memory of them was obliterated by their patriarchal successors. How old is that Encyclopedia Britannica you were using, anyway?
A point to make is that the word matriarchy is assumed to mean, Rule by women, in an absolutist way corresponding to rule by men. But power in a truly matriarchal society is held by the women not as rulership, but as a kind of stewardship of the community and the land. The women rulers don't dominate the society, they look after it. If you see the distinction. Also, it wouldn't be impossible for woman to hold temporal power and rasie children if the whole society were structured to allow them to do that, as it honored women's unique ability to bear children and recognized it as the logical source of political and spiritual power in the land.
Alissa
Subj: Wolf Returns
Date: 95-08-24 08:35:34 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Hello everyone!
Well, I have started talking to publishers about my book,
Changed my account and screenname, and have added an N to the end!
I am sorry I have been away so long from here, it seems my board has turned into total anarchy!
Remember, this is a board where fantasy WRITERS can come together and express views and talk about what I believe to be a fast growing genre. Today there are very few fantasy writers that are at a very serious level. The idea of this board is for writers to support each other in the trials of trying to create a world! Remember, fantasy is created from scratch. The whole work relies on imagination. this is not that easy a thing!!!!!
Hope to hear from all of the serious members of this board directly!
Wolfsrunn (If you E-mail me, remember to use two n's)
Subj: Re:Wolf Returns
Date: 95-08-24 19:38:57 EST
From: Wrynyl
Posted on: America Online
It's great to have you back, Wolf!!! It's been a little nuts here. I've sort of been offline for a few days... thanks for mailing me. Good luck with the book! My writing, alas, is not going too great...
Once again, it's good to have you back. Sorry I couldn't keep the peace for you...
Kelli
Subj: READ ME!!!!!
Date: 95-08-24 21:44:05 EST
From: RMarsh8471
Posted on: America Online
I NEED "GOOD" IDEAS TO WRITE A FANTASY NOVEL!! WRITE TO ME NOW!!!!
Subj: Re:RMarsh8471
Date: 95-08-25 14:55:13 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Hello!
To find a good idea for a book, take what is most interesting to you and twist it until it becomes a story of fantasy that appeals to others. If my words seem vague, look at some of the very earlier posts, we had this discussion a month ago or so!
Subj: Re:Wolf to all
Date: 95-08-25 15:09:12 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
I just want everyone to know that my earlier post was not meant to sound the least bit annoyed or patronizing. I was only trying to redefine what this board is about. For those of you who I have not spoken to through E-Mail or resonded to here, I am Wolfsrun and i created this board to bring together fantasy writers on AOL on some common ground. I have loved Fantasy since I was very young. The first books in the genre that I read were the Narnia Chronicles by C.S. Lewis (as though any of you would not know that) and my personal favorites, The Prydian chronicles by LLoyd Alexander. Currently my favorite writers are Robert Jordan and L. E. Modessitt jr. If any of you have missed on either writer---PICK UP A BOOK! They are without a doubt, some of the most talented in the field, and their style of writing is so perfect, my writing improved drastically through my reading of them.
Hello Wrynyl. It is very goods to be back here, even with a new name! I am glad to hear from you and I missed you and the other pioneer members also. I recently recieved a cookie recipie from the Dragonness, so I assume she is still online.
I would like to present a topic of conversation for those of you who tune in here on a regular basis. As this is Fantasy, the topic relies on the most prevalent part of fantasy, the question of magic. Everywhere from Tolkien's subded, but powerful almost hidden magic, to the sword and sorcery of Dungeons and Dragons (blah) magic is an incredible force in the genre.
MY question to all of you is this: What would you consider the perfect sort of magic in your fantasy world? Is it subdued to the point that it is all but nonexistent? Does it permeate every aspect of life? Does your fantasy world revolve around it, or does the world shun it?
I think that we shall find the answers to this question very different.
Magic for me is a source of power that comes both internally, and from a wider encompasing web of the source. In my latest book, magic takes two forms, a powerful but chaotic song broken into three parts, and a weave of power that can be accessed more mundanely. It is difficult to use, feared and respected, and has cataclysmic results. Yet, there are very few who practice it. The magic i invented on Fallon is extremely complex and intertwined to the point that even the reader can not fully grasp it until well through the novel, if then. I made it this way purposely to hold something in check as a means of baiting and leading the writer toward a revelation.
I wait your answers to my question anxiously.
-Wolfsrunn
or Wolf, if you prefer
Subj: Magic
Date: 95-08-25 17:01:24 EST
From: AHDN64
Posted on: America Online
Wolf:
My magic permeates everything, living or "inanimate". Each object is different. Access to the magic depends upon the seeker and the magic being sought. What works for an eagle may not work for the wind if I am the seeker. However, if eagle is the seeker of wind magic it may be easier for him for there is a cord of the web that goes directly from eagle to wind. My cord, although it may be strong, could be like a strand of a silver necklace entertwined with other strands and I must have patience to follow one strand.
Mitzi
Subj: Re:Magic
Date: 95-08-25 19:26:58 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
In my story, Wolf, magic is actually, at its root, what could be called "universal power". It is, very simply, the power that created the universe and all in it, and it now holds it all together. Those who can access this power (although everyone is made up of it) are rare, and chosen by the god they serve.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:Magic
Date: 95-08-25 21:11:29 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Hmm, Shining One, that sounds like some are sorted out by fate and the others just have to take the crumbs...no rewards for hard work, just handouts for some...what does this mean?
Subj: Femail Warriars
Date: 95-08-26 15:07:32 EST
From: Ol St Joe
Posted on: America Online
Well, theres the bulk of Mcaffrey's writing.
Have you read Mists Of Avalon? It's great, and I think there are more in the series.
B - O - B
Subj: Re:Willow
Date: 95-08-26 15:36:42 EST
From: Ol St Joe
Posted on: America Online
If you liked WILLOW, check out SHADOW MOON: Book One Of The Shadow War. It's a VERY new release by George Lucas and Chris Clairmont (of Uncanny X-Men). Shadow Moon is the first in a trilogy, of which WILLOW was the prequel. It holds quite true to the story of Willow, while introducing some new and terrofying obsticals. There's a whole new cast of characters as well. Enjoy, I did!
-Bob
Subj: Re:Magic
Date: 95-08-27 13:55:52 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
It means, Katryn, that I'm not particularly democratic, and I trust the gods to decide what's best for their worlds.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: How magic is in my world....
Date: 95-08-27 15:36:33 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
In the world I've created, magic is not only the force that created the universe, but it is in everyone. And it is up to the individual, not the gods, whether or not a person can practice magic (I prefer to call it sorcery myself). The reasoning behind this is: everyone has an innate ability to practice magic, it depends how that individual percieves the world around them and how much time they are willing to devote to their study and practice. It also depends on how close to nature they are. Can they become one with the elements and powers that be? Some can reach that state, others can't or simply don't want to devote the time. :)
Zahrima
Subj: world crafting
Date: 95-08-27 18:55:56 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Is anyone interested in a discussion of how social environments shape and change a character, or even a story or book? I'm interested in such a *discussion* (and I don't consider the expression of an opposing view to be evidence of an argument) with fellow creators of universes who can communicate their ideas in a more effective manner than the bizarre personal attacks and hissy fits I have received from one pontificator.
Surely there must be those interested in an exchange of ideas.
Subj: Re:world crafting
Date: 95-08-27 21:12:36 EST
From: Aliann
Posted on: America Online
I am a fantasy writer who can't get enough of social environments - which, I have discovered, do not suggest themselves, but are suggested by the landscape. In my current work, a fertile delta gives rise to a social system that would be impossible in a less temperate clime. Ursula K LeGuin is very good at social evolution.
And I am foursquare against hissy fits.
--Aliann
Subj: Musings
Date: 95-08-28 08:35:10 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
To my suprise, I found that your discussions of magic had some common ground. It is personable and permeates all things. It seems common ground that magic is a part of life and stems from life. But consider this. To me magic is in three parts, as it must be, as it has been decreed throughout time. (Magic always comes in threes) The first part is that of harmony, or life. The second, that of ballance, or opposition, and the third, that of destruction, not death, but unlife. One magic changes or strengthens, white its opposite destroys or unravels. The middle ground seeks order through the combination of the two. But consider this, the Darkmagic or the magic of destruction is also the magic of fantasy and mystery. The Lightmagic may be a changewind, but it is the combination of the two that bring the most drastic change.
Intertwine the two and there results a paradox that is confusing not only to us, but the people who practice the arts. The citizens of Fallon, my mythical world, have practiced magic for centuries and still scarecly understand all of its ramifications!
Social strata and Environment? My book relies on a very devestating social interaciton between the peoples of the lands. Fallon is a world at war with itself. Even the Academy of High Sorcery in Heartstone has begun to turn away from the Lifemagic to study Destruction. The Banelord is on the rise, and the people of the Eastlands fear his dark troops. Yet those who serve the Banelord do so out of pride for their own country. They see the Eastlands as Evil, and themselves as good, though for all intents and purposes, the Westalnd rulers are aligned with dark forces. Within this dangerous world, a sense of live life while it is awarded to you, permeates the people. They are more kind among their own people. Women and men are at a comepletely egalitarian level. A women can be a ruler or a warrior, just as a man may stay home to mind the children while his wife studies magic. Men and women are stronger than the other in different ways. The greatest warrior in the history of the land was a man. The one who finally defeted him was the women he loved.
I await your further thoughts,
Wolfsrunn
Subj: world crafting
Date: 95-08-28 19:44:53 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Aliann--while I set my stories in a pre-industrial universe, I try not to romanticize what was a very hard way to live for most people. While some of the people here like easy solutions to life's problems, and find them credible, I thought about it a bit and decided Vanyel would have been much more interesting, sympathetic and credible if he hadn't been so top-heavy with Life's Advantages.
I'm in the fourth novel of a series, and for some time I've been playing with a shape-changing wizard whose moral character has been ambiguous throughout. He's been a minor character up until now. All the chatter about poor, whining Vanyel, and the sheer hell of not being able to fritter away his life while he shirks responsibilities inspired me to take a closer look at my wizard, and maybe make a kind of un-Vanyel out of him, somebody who had some *real* social obstacles to overcome to avoid being crushed by the weight of his likely path in life. I think it's impossible to completely put a humble beginning behind one; my wizard has risen high among his brother-wizards and he's feared by ordinary people, but part of him questions what he has become and done.
Subj: Re:How magic is in my world....
Date: 95-08-29 00:46:09 EST
From: TrboTurtle
Posted on: America Online
Well, in for a penny, in for a pound...........
On my world, magic is based on the elements (Fire, Water, Earth and Air). Each person trains to use and control one element (say Air), has knowledge in the complementry elements (in this case, Fire and Water), and has no knowledge or control over the oposing element (In a Air Mage's case, Earth).
In order to become a Mage, training starts at the age of twelve. At age fifteen, those that pass the test go to one of the Citidels that teach magic, depending on the results of the test. Each element has it's own Citidel where that form of magic is taught.
In return for the teachings, most Mages are sent out to live amoung the locals, performing needed services for the good of the comunity. Magic is reguarded as common, though special, and Mages are well respected.
That sums it up for now.
Turtle
Subj: Re:world crafting
Date: 95-08-30 01:14:49 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Aliann,
Not to be rude, but it seems to me one could do a lot worse than emulate a woman with a string of huge bestsellers, who is now laughing all the way to the bank. We should all be such "terrible" writers.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: avatars
Date: 95-08-30 04:34:24 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
We could all be aping mainstream bestseller fiction styles, too, Shining One, but we don't. The people here are interested in the writing of fantasy fiction, I would think *good* original fantasy fiction, as opposed to formulaic or imitative work. Anyone who can make a decent living by writing has certainly beaten the odds, but that's no reason to consciously replicate the weaker aspects of their work. Ms Lackey of late has also incorporated issues of political correctness and slang vocabulary which will tie those books to a very narrow time period. While that may impress some of her readers now, in a few years the books will *sound* dated, and in a few more years, some of it may not even be understandable to someone not alive and aware in the early 90s. Surely you that is not what you would have any of us emulate, Shining One? One can simply make money any number of easier ways.
Subj: Re:Star v. Kat
Date: 95-08-30 08:31:03 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
I myself do not really enjoy the works of Lackey. I think that i found her books somewhat flighty for me. Yet, that is simply an opinion. I did not get through the first of her books because I could not stand ehr characters. They were not such that I felt any identification for. But this is not a unique experience. There are authors that I absolutely devour that others, I am sure, can hardly stand. The undeniable truth is that Lackey has written quite a few novels, and is talented at least! The women may not be a Robert Jordan or on par with Chalker or Anthony, yet she has a somewhat predictable and easy style that VERY MANY people enjoy. Lackey is the type of writer who you identify with. Her style is comforting because it does not take you by suprise. This is not what I like, yet i have found that this style is very commonplace, and sells VERY WELL! Look at Dean Koontz, writer of pop horror. He has his momnets of excellence, such as Hideaway, but for the most part, he is predictable and very easy to read. But he has published something like forty books! I see Lacky in the same light.
Katryn, the idea is to keep an open mind. it is abvious to me that you sincerely dislike Ms Lackey's novels. Nevertheless, you should also seek to find what makes the author so popular. She is doing something right, I assure you.
My style of writing is twisted and chaotic, with a basic order that holds the whole together. But the storiesd jump, they shock, and they beat on the characters until you feel like killing them or fall in love with them. For me the story is the characters, and an affinity with them is greater then any other aspect of the work. My newest novel has six main character who are all as different from each other as can be imagined. There are also sub-characters who have lives of their own apart from the main. This is a very difficult way to write! If i succeed, it will be an epic novel of incredibly broad dimensions. If i fail, it will be a mess that makes little sense and is scattered pages.
What I am saying to all of you is to understand that a person's favorite writer is a part of their own style and how they see themselves as a writer. Those that we admire are a part of ourselves. When I write, I still see a little of the taleweaving of Tolkein, or the almost childish charm of Lloyd Alexander. As I am a sometime poet, I find the darkness of T.S. Eliot touch my words and some of the beauty of browning and Coleridge. i beg for understanding---yet not without the light of opinion. Point out the weaknesses of a writer, but do not exonerate him or her without forst looking at the strengths!
-Wolfsrunn
Subj: Magic and Worldbuilding
Date: 95-08-30 11:07:27 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
The magic in my worlds has varied in its uses and in its influence, but always the moment of definition comes when a society or a person chooses to embrace it or to turn away from it. It is both everywhere and very personal -- The magic in the wind, in the light, in the trees will be available only to the person who embraces the magic and its possibilities within himself or herself. In one of my stories, the most magical person is the Oracle, who alone has the power to name -- to give identity to both the people who worship him and the things around him. No one else sees that as magical, or understands the power of that magic. It is when one who hasn't chosen the magic seeks it without understanding that it becomes truly dangerous, even more so than when it is used consciously for evil purposes.
I think that worlds have to be conditioned by everything around them. In fantasy more than in mainstream fiction, the setting is as much a character as the people...The rhythms of life on the delta someone described must be affected by the cycle of flood and drought which the river will bring. (Nile society is a very good example.) People get their gods and their magic from their surroundings, and then they build civilizations based on that...
Glad to have you back Wolfsrun -- and thanks for an interesting question. I think it's good for my writing, at least, to be forced to think about what I do at a subconscious level...
MaryAnne
Subj: Re:avatars
Date: 95-08-30 19:38:31 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
::Sigh:: Call me a stick in the mud, but I tend to take my advice from people who have succeeded in my chosen field, rather than those still trying. Go figure.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:Star v. Kat
Date: 95-08-30 19:46:43 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
You definitely have a point, Wolfsrunn. The fact is, no one writer, no matter how good, is going to appeal to everyone, because everyone likes something different. This is fortunate, because it makes room for all different styles. For instance, one of my closest friends swears by C.J. Cherryh, and I personally wouldn't touch her stories with a ten-foot pole. I won't deny that she's talented, but not in a way that appeals to me. If Mercedes Lackey has any one true fault as a writer, it is in the area of plot development. Individually, her books have the bare minimum of plot necessary, and focus exclusively on her characters and their interactions. It is, in fact, necessary to read her entire series (and I don't just mean the Last Herald-Mage series, I mean everything following) to glean as much plot as one would normally find in a regular book or trilogy.
However, I think that's only really a fault from the standpoint of a creative writing class. In reality, many people like that, and a good writer always knows her (or his) audience.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:Star v. Kat
Date: 95-08-30 20:23:48 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Shining One, there are those who imitate, and those who *create*.
Subj: BREAK WRITER'S BLOCK NOW!
Date: 95-08-30 21:18:50 EST
From: LawBloc
Posted on: America Online
That's the title of a book I want to recommend. The author, Jerrold Mundis, has a system that really works. The book's out of print but you can order it from him---$14.95 plus $3.00 shipping. Call toll-free 1-800-345-6665. A word to the wise. . .there aren't all that many copies left.
Subj: Re:Magic is alive and well
Date: 95-08-31 15:25:35 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
I have truly enjoyed the many definitions of magic that you have offered. And yet, such a question as what magic exists in your world must naturally evolve.
My next question is this: As a fantasy writer, do you believe in magic in our own world. Do you believe in doors between worlds that may actually exist?
To myself, this world is incredible. I have stared for hours at the way the trees sway in a rainstorm, how the darkness of the sky shadows the limbs into an almost gothic array of patterns. I have stood upon the highest cliffs and gazed across valleys and meadows. I have been touched by the fall as autumn blazes its way across the land in color and beauty. Perhaps magic for me is a part of nature. A basic element that underlies all things, builds us shapes us. Yet I take it a step farther. Magic has to do with harmony and its balance against dischord. Magic for me is an artform, a song that is as perfect as it is imperfect, and ever evolving. I think that we all balance the forces within ourselves, tap the perfections and imperfections for the strength that gets us through life. And this life is hard. Much of the mystery has been lost by our tendency to evolve and question the natural world around us. A film of dirty industry has been laid over our earth, and perhaps the magic was buried.
Yet somewhere blows the changewind. And somewhere there is a shaper, and a creator. Somewhere there is a door to somewhere else. There must be. There must be an otherwhere, becuase I see it in my heart every moment I bend over these keys and type out a new novel
-Wolfsrunn
Subj: Wayne's World in Valdemar
Date: 95-08-31 17:15:15 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Unvarnished self-promotion: I have a story, "Just Like You" in the August/September issue of Moonletters. It's a humorous story --and the lead story in this issue-- dealing with one of my mainstay characters Qoreyeh, who also figures in my novels. Moonletters is available for $2 the single copy at 6334 South Long, Chicago, Illinois 60638. (No, I don't print it. I don't even live in Illinois or personally know the editor.)
Well, truth to tell, W., I've studied Lackey from a marketing viewpoint for a while, and as as indicator of values. I grew up reading Andre Norton, before there really was such a thing as a fantasy genre, and Andre consistently has youngish protagonists who win past adversity through work and persistence. Frequently they are outcasts or misfits; they don't always get *exactly* what they had in mind at the outset, but they do get somewhere. 30 years later my guess is Lackey is writing for much the same readership, and her message *generally* is, "you are what you look like; much of what you achieve will the result of inborn talent, not work". Quite different messages, quite reflective of their times.
Lackey *is* a good writer. The trouble is she is mired in PC and the use of language and themes that can be tied to a narrow range of years. I find it distracting to read pre-industrial types chatting like "Wayne's World". Also, I think she is getting sloppy, and cranking things out too quickly. *Black Gryphon* read like a first draft, at least as far as I could keep reading it. Also, I have reached the point where I can *tell* where she's going to introduce Vanyel's ghost or one of his *many* descendants.
Subj: Re:Magic is alive and well
Date: 95-08-31 20:34:41 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Yes, Wolf, I believe magic/sorcery exists in our world, too. However, this is where we get into religion. I'm a Pagan, need I say more? I'm not so sure I believe in doorways to parallell worlds, but I do believe in reincarnation. :)
Subj: Re:avatars
Date: 95-08-31 20:44:10 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Radiantstr,
I think we all have something to learn from one another whether we've been published or not. Of course, who wouldn't prefer advice from someone who's been there. But, if you want advice on a manuscript, any writer, published or not, will do. Why? Because writers, for the most part, know what to look for when it comes to plot, characters, etc. It's also good to get advice from readers. After all, they're the ones who will eventually read your work when it gets published anyway! :)
Subj: Do You Believe in Magic?
Date: 95-09-02 10:39:39 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
The flight from reason in this society makes for a fascinating study. Some otherwise intelligent individuals, raised with the benefits of technology, have chosen a neo-Luddite viewpoint which damns science and romanticises past ages in which almost everyone lived short, miserable lives...even as they write on their computers, have been spared the ravages of contagion because of vaccinations, and are warned well in advance when nasty weather threatens. I don't know what it means when people respond this way, but it is compelling to watch.
I don't believe in magic. I do believe ESP exists, that animals are telepathic, and that something *real* is happening to people who report alien abductions (but not necesarily kidnapping by extraterrestials). "Not well understood" does not equate with "magical".
I'm one of those horrible, nasty technical people. I work in --gasp-- the *chemical* industry, and go about the plant in a hard hat, safety shoes et alia. Sometimes I have to pull samples out of 55 gallon drums of --shudder-- *chemicals*. Some of them are so dangerous I have to wear a respirator during sampling. I analyze things, which is a technical endeavor . I *really do* wear white lab coats. I love it when the numbers come together. But when I come home, I write in the fantasy genre, creating tales in which magic works and is very real. But is is fiction, and I never allow fiction to bleed over into reality.
For non-technoids who care to understand technoids, I recommend a slender volume entitled *The Existential Pleasures of Engineering*, by Samuel C Florman (1976)
Subj: Forum
Date: 95-09-02 11:50:30 EST
From: Rill7
Posted on: America Online
I'm unfortunatly a new person to this area--could someone tell em a little more about this board? I write fantasy novels by the way.
Rill
Subj: Re:Star v. Kat
Date: 95-09-02 15:36:01 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Mmm, yes, you're right. And there are those who are so elitist that they do nothing but tear down both.
Radiant Shiningstar
PS. Since my name actually IS Radiant, you might call me by it.
Subj: Re:Magic is alive and well
Date: 95-09-02 15:40:34 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
I think you're right about magic in our world, Wolf, but I don't quite agree with the idea that mystery has been lost by our tendency to question. In fact, I think the more answers we discover, the more questions occur, and the more wondrous and mysterious things actually appear to be.
Take, for example, the human body. This is an amazing, intricate, complex machine -- completely beyond human ability to create -- which houses the most powerful computer we know, and operates on a perfect, delicate balance. And the more we learn about both this machine and the computer inside it, the more amazing, complex, and unique they both turn out to be. Can you imagine the kind of "magic" necessary to create something like that?
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:avatars
Date: 95-09-02 15:43:11 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
>>But, if you want advice on a manuscript, any writer, published or not, will do. Why? Because writers, for the most part, know what to look for when it comes to plot, characters, etc.<<
Perhaps, but what if they're terrible writers?
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: what do you think about fantasy?
Date: 95-09-02 16:49:39 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
The purpose of this board? I thought it was to discuss the writing of fantasy. That's why I'm here. Some others are just feeding overblown egos and having hissy fits rather than attempt to defend their ideas like adults.
Questions posed to all:
1) While creating a fantasy story/tale, are you writing to suit your own tastes or what you perceive desirable in the marketplace?
2) What sort of stories, characters, themes do you believe are saleable and why?
3) When you write your tales, are you writing with the thought of telling a story to another person? (This seems obvious, but apparently for some of us the telling of a personal tale that no one else might understand is also a possiblity.)
4) Do you care if anyone will be able to pick up one of your stories 20 years from now, and understand it?
5) What is your explanation of the current popularity of fantasy fiction in this culture? (30 years ago this genre hardly existed.)
Subj: Re:avatars
Date: 95-09-02 19:27:05 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Radiant
Okay, so not all writers are GREAT. But for every three people who like a person's writing, published or not, there are three more who hate it. I personally think Anne Rice is a terrible writer. How many people would argue with me? I'm betting it would be quite a few. I've read some unpublished authors that are wonderful writers! And I've read some published authors who are terrible. It's all in personal taste. But to say that ONLY a published writer should critique another writers work sounds elitist to me. There are a lot of good writers out there. Why do you think the competition is so stiff? I'm not trying to be rude. I merely want to make a point. Besides, even the worst writers can improve with practice and determination. Remember the old saying: If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Those who continue trying are the ones who will win out in the end.
Subj: Re:what do you think about fanta
Date: 95-09-03 02:31:22 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
>>The purpose of this board? I thought it was to discuss the writing of fantasy. That's why I'm here. Some others are just feeding overblown egos and having hissy fits rather than attempt to defend their ideas like adults.<<
Why, Katryn. Don't be so hard on yourself, dear.
>>1) While creating a fantasy story/tale, are you writing to suit your own tastes or what you perceive desirable in the marketplace?<<
While it's certainly desirable to sell a book, if your writing doesn't please and interest you first, it won't interest anyone else, either.
>>2) What sort of stories, characters, themes do you believe are saleable and why?<<
Almost anything is salable to SOMEONE. There are people who absolutely adore fantasy romances, even though many of them contain the most deplorable science one could imagine.
>>3) When you write your tales, are you writing with the thought of telling a story to another person? (This seems obvious, but apparently for some of us the telling of a personal tale that no one else might understand is also a possiblity.)<<
Certainly, although at the moment, the other person in question is also me.
>>4) Do you care if anyone will be able to pick up one of your stories 20 years from now, and understand it?<<
I haven't given 20 years from now a thought, really. The here and now is quite enough on my plate at the moment.
>>5) What is your explanation of the current popularity of fantasy fiction in this culture? (30 years ago this genre hardly existed.)<<
Not quite. While it certainly didn't exist as a clearly delineated set, neither did many other things, except in people's minds. Fantasy and science fiction stories -- the forerunners of what we're doing now -- have been around forever. In a time when there was just literature -- good or bad -- there were 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA, JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH, WAR OF THE WORLDS, DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE, and others. Before that, there were legends, folk tales, and fairy tales. And it was all for the same reason that there is any kind of fiction: because people need an escape from life, and everyone needs a fantasy.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:avatars
Date: 95-09-03 02:38:08 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Zahrima,
I've never said only a published writer should be the only one to critique a work. And I won't deny that some published authors make me shake my head in wonder at how they ever managed it (Danielle Steele, for example, makes my teeth hurt to read her stuff). However, I hesitate to criticize her overmuch, or too virulently, because whatever my personal opinion, she obviously has something going for her, or she wouldn't be where she is. I think it would be rather arrogant of me to chop her to bits as a terrible writer, under those circumstances.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Take part in Interactive Novel
Date: 95-09-03 14:07:35 EST
From: Bensonx2
Posted on: America Online
At No Dead Trees, we're attempting what has been described as impossible; creating a hypertext, hyperexistence CyberNovel. Characters move in different directions at the same time. Vampires, the Packet Worlds CyberWorld. Drop in.
http://www.acy.digex.net/~dobenson/benson.html
David Benson
Webmaster, No Dead Trees
Subj: New dark fantasy 'zine
Date: 95-09-04 03:07:31 EST
From: DARKERWOOD
Posted on: America Online
A new Dark Fantasy 'zine seeks short story submissions up to 2,500 words. The 'Zine will be published annually (for now). For writers guidelines and submission information, please e-mail DARKERWOOD.
Subj: Re:Magic
Date: 95-09-05 20:24:33 EST
From: Aerae
Posted on: America Online
My goodness! I'm out of it for a week or so and the board explodes. Magic, social strata, etc . . . What a lot of questions. Now for my two-bits.
Socio-political structure on my world of Ryvah is one of the most important plot devices. My main characters, Rae and Daro, are assassins, but not in the traditional sense. The Assassins of Codoria are a political checks and balances system that evolved out of the Age of Tyranny, over three hundred years before BONDS OF BLOOD, BONDS OF STEEL begins. It is the judicial duty of an assassin that sends them to Terrace on strike with a contract for Morgan the Usurper Queen. This is the place where all their troubles begin.
Now, as for magic -- there is really not all that much mentioned in BONDS. Legends speak of The Turning, a time when the magic of the opposing poles were turned against each other. Who did this and why is a mystery, so the only magic they know of is residual.
As for magic in the world, I feel that all legends are based on fact. If there is no magic here now there was at one point in time. To me, this question is something along the lines of whether or not there is life on other planets. I say yes to both questions.
Aerae
Subj: contemporary fantasy
Date: 95-09-05 20:30:18 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Bravo, bravo, Ms Shining One! Obviously you have mastered the basics of the roots of sf and fantasy, and your recitation was admirable. Now that you have proven that you, too, have minimal erudition in this field, might we return to the *discussion* of contemporary fantasy, the genre in which we are all writing?
To clarify matters, until very recently, fantasy intended for adults (as opposed to traditional fairy tales) typically had a terrestial link, and few if any female protagonists. In such works, women existed to be rescued or raped, if at all. (There are a handful of obscure exceptions, like *Herland*.) Most of the writers were male, and the women who did write sf or what we would recognize as fantasy hid behind initials or pen names. They had to; the market was assumed to be predominantly male and adolescent.
Lord Dunsany's tales (at least the ones I've read) have terrestial links. So does Eddison's *Worm Ouroboros*, set on Mercury. Later, Andre Norton's *Witch World* (1964) *begins* on Earth. Even Marion Zimmer Bradley's earliest Darkover books are space opera. Katherine Kurtz's (first book, circa 1972) Deryni saga is set on an alternate Earth. Even Moorcock's Melnibonean Elric has terrestial links; Elric is a manifestation of the Eternal Champion, as is Hawkmoon, who lives on an alternate Earth of the future.
Contemporary writers have no hesitation to set their tales in stand-alone worlds with no connection to Earth. Nor do they hesitate to populate their tales with strong female characters. This is decidedly different from what has gone on in the past.
Subj: Re:contemporary fantasy
Date: 95-09-06 12:46:20 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
And the point of this recitation was, specifically, what, Katryn?
Radiant
Subj: Re:contemporary fantasy
Date: 95-09-06 14:21:40 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
An attempt by HissyRad to show off what she thought only she knew.
Subj: reflections on fantasy
Date: 95-09-06 19:48:38 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
I really *was* trying to elicit some thoughtful responses to the series of questions I posted a few days ago, more reflective than the myopic and self-focused response which has appeared thus far.
The issue of whether or not you are writing to suit your own tastes or for a perceived market is not a trivial one. I cannot believe that the authors of the Perry Rhodan sagas were creating anything other than material to exchange for paychecks; the formulaic nature of romance novels is well-known. There are formulaic fantasies on the market as well. There are also overworked devices, such as the female who disguises herself as an adolescent boy. (A lot of women did pass themselves off as men, ususally so they would not be parted from husbands; cases have been documented. Some were excellent, decorated soldiers. But I don't think any fantasy writer has ever tackled the delicate issue of what they did to hide their flows--now, there's new terrain to explore!)
If a theme keeps showing up in the market (for example, the many, *many* retellings of the Matter of Britain) does this mean that's something to write about or does it mean that it's probably overdone?
I think that there are some tales which are not going to fly in the present market. Recently I read a fantasy book with a 1979 publishing date. There were NO female characters until page 200+; when one did appear, she was an *unnamed* hermit-witch. It's hard to imagine a major paperback house putting out a book like that in 1995. (Title & author via private e-mail, if anyone wants to know)
Language dates a book if one isn't careful. For example, if two pre-industrial wizards have just opened a chest full of treasure, and WizardOne says, "Cool!" and his pal, WizardTwo responds with "Not!" just as it turns to rancid dragon's eggs, that piece is easily dated, and probably anyone reading it after 2005 will find it mildly quaint.
Subj: Critique
Date: 95-09-06 20:03:32 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
I have a fantasy short that I would like someone to critque. Please e-mail me.
Subj: Re:reflections on fantasy
Date: 95-09-06 20:24:46 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
>>I really *was* trying to elicit some thoughtful responses to the series of questions I posted a few days ago, more reflective than the myopic and self-focused response which has appeared thus far.<<
Well, gosh, Katryn. Maybe it's just that you've been so rude, everyone else is afraid to talk to you. What do you suppose the odds are?
Either way, you'll just have to live with my comments, since I pay my bills quite regularly.
The "formulaic nature" of romance novels is NOT well-known, except to snobbish people who wouldn't lower themselves to read one. Every genre has certain qualities that are required for a book to fit in that group, but the romance field is every bit as full of story possibilities as fantasy/science fiction.
I have an actual question, rather than just a soliloquy. When one is in the middle of world creation for a book, is it easier -- and preferable -- to simply create your own world out of the whole cloth, or to base it on a period is Earth's actual history, such as England during the Middle Ages? Obviously, to some extent, it will be based on Earth, simply because that's what we all know. But is it better to create a world that's very different, with it's own set of rules (which must then be created, as well)? Or is it better to go with, for instance, the Middle Ages, and then be bound by the rules that applied then (and must then be researched)? Which would you prefer to read? And what other sort of world could be done?
Radiant
Subj: Re:reflections on fantasy
Date: 95-09-06 21:37:55 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Radiant Shiningstar
In regards to your question..... It depends, are we talking fantasy or historical fiction? If you create a world adjacent to Earth with the rules of that time period, in my opinion, you're writing historical fiction. If you create your own world, you're writing fantasy. Yes, another common sense answer from me :)
By the way, I guess I am one of those "snobbish" people who are too good to read romances. I wouldn't pay for a novel so formulated. Do you know who reads that trash? Women with very little education and who have lives that are just as exciting as watching cement dry. I'm not that bored. Not yet anyhow.
ZAHRIMA
Subj: Re:avatars
Date: 95-09-06 21:48:43 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Radiant Shiningstar, are you some sort of elitist or something? You're being quite snobbish. You act as if you are the only one on this board who knows anything about writing and writing fantasy. Let's let everyone have their opinions. Both the Published and Unpublished. You seem to have a bias against unpublished writers. I've been published several times and you don't see me running around acting like the GODDESS of fantasy! Chill out!
Subj: Re:avatars
Date: 95-09-07 01:16:14 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
I'll answer both of your posts at the same time, if you don't mind. First of all, I know a great many women (and men) who both read and write romance novels. The writers work every bit as hard at their craft as any other type of writer, and, in fact, are often more exhaustive in their research than many others. I have, without exception, found both the readers and writers of romance novels (those I've met, obviously) to be intelligent and articulate, with very busy lives from which they, like most people, occasionally need a short vacation. That they choose to vacation in a story about two people falling in love rather than, say, flying off to another planet or battling demons is no reason whatsoever to look down on them.
In answer to your second post, no, I'm not an elitist. I have no problem with unpublished people expressing opinions about books, since readers usually have a much better idea of what is and isn't good in a book than authors do, even if they (the reader) can't always articulate it. My problem, which apparently you have missed, is with specific people harassing all but the most hardy and brave into complete silence on this board. If I've been somewhat abrasive to others in this, I apologize, but I have a rather nasty temper when provoked. And while certainly unpublished writers can and should discriminate between what they do and do not like, when the discussion comes to the point that it did in this board, I definitely think it's time for the uninitiated to shut up and learn from the professionals. Shakespeare, for example, made many glaring errors in his writing, but he's still Shakespeare, and I wouldn't presume to set myself above him.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: romance novels
Date: 95-09-07 01:36:56 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
My lasting impression of the readers of romance novels was at a huge used book sale at a mall. I saw a woman pushing around a grocery cart of Harlequin romances piled 5" all through the floor of the cart. Buying books in bulk like that just doesn't happen if you're at all choosy about authors, theme, plot...it's mind candy, not reading material.
Subj: O Lofty One
Date: 95-09-07 01:47:10 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Well, do share with us SO your publication credits. You hint that I am "uninitiated". Please tell the rest of us why you are qualified to decide who is "initiated" and who is not. Please.
Subj: Re:Star and Kat
Date: 95-09-07 02:09:49 EST
From: Alissa94
Posted on: America Online
All right you two, just CUT IT OUT! This silly little clash of egos has gone on on this board long enough. Do you realize how childish and petty you sound? Also, do you realize that none of the rest of us really care about your pointless little squabble and that you are WASTING BANDWIDTH?! If you feel so compelled to continue to screech at each other, do it via E-mail. We have better things to do with this board--and if it degenerates into nothing more than a contest of wills, no one else will bother posting and AOL will delete it. So COOL IT already! Jeez!
Alissa94, a gifted and published author who is not paying $3 an hour to watch a catfight.
Subj: Re:Star and Kat
Date: 95-09-07 10:19:43 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
This board is not meant for personal attacksa and debating. Do you three, I mean Radiant, Katryn and Zahrima realize that in the last few days you have overcome the board with personal attacks and have all but driven everyone else from here? I would like to see things toned down. Each of you is obviously very intelligent, and I have seen that you each write very well. Yet the ego bashing between Radiant and Katryn is becoming very tiresome. We are having discussions about fantsy, asking questions and gaining answers that should be honest and insightful. Forgive me if you feel I am wrong, but I truly feel that you two have begun using this board as a personal vendetta to see who is the brightest fantasy writer. I could care less if one of you has published 40 best sellers and the other not even a short story. We are all equal here as writers--we share a common interest, and that is what should be stressed. I want you both to remain here, you both add a very strong dimension to the genre, but if you wish to battle over who is a better author, do so through E-mail, the other members of the board are tiring of this.
E-mail me with any opinions, complaints, attacks, on what I have said.
Wolfsrunn
Subj: Re:Magic.
Date: 95-09-07 10:22:08 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Perhaps I am a fool,
yet I believe that magic exists in this world. I strongly feel that there are other worlds out there, other existences that are part of a cosmic game played by God. I think perhaps, for my whole life, I have waited for that portal that appears in my books to open for myself. Nevertheless, when I write, I think a part of me actually makes it to those places.
Wolf
Subj: Re:Magic.
Date: 95-09-07 13:11:03 EST
From: OC Adam M
Posted on: America Online
Try another sort of magic.
Instead of the standard crap like the four elements, enchanted objects, names, etc. try something new.
Suggestions:
Quantum Physics
Gestalts (a group of people with magic powers, but only if they're in contact)
Chaos Theory (i.e. destroying a dragon by a tsunami..caused by a butterfly)
Clouds
Ley lines
Subj: Re:Adam M
Date: 95-09-07 16:06:21 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Elemental magic is not "crap" it occurs all around you each and every day. Besides, a butterfly causing a tsunami is wind magic!
For me, magic occurs as part of a song...
Wolf
Subj: Re:Magic.
Date: 95-09-07 18:07:57 EST
From: APoetGirl4
Posted on: America Online
I recently wrote a story entitled "Clouds" about the magic of clouds and other interesting things. Although some might say that my subject is kind of stale, I think I livened it up a bit since it didn't end the way I thought it would.
Subj: discussing fantasy
Date: 95-09-07 20:03:18 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
To Wolfie and all--
Note that more than once I have tried to bring up topics of interest to most everyone reading this board. The object was to generate discussion about fantasy. It's not my doing that one person chooses to respond to them in a snotty, personal fashion.
When she makes sweeping pronouncements and baseless generalizations setting herself as an all-knowing fantasy expert, she's talking down to everyone here, not just me. We all do know about Verne & Wells, don't we? And just who is she to pronounce *anyone* here "unitiated"? This is just plain arrogance, directed at everyone.
I've never ever claimed anything for myself beyond the post about my publication. It's real. If you have it, flaunt it. Any point I made was backed up with examples. I'm not here to *win* a fight with an illogical snot who can only make ungrounded assertions. I'm here to discuss fantasy. Shall we get on with it? Please?
Subj: Re:discussing fantasy
Date: 95-09-07 20:47:37 EST
From: APoetGirl4
Posted on: America Online
Alright, let's discuss fantasy. What do you want to discuss? Ever since I first came to this board, I really haven't seen much discussion about anything except who's better than who. I would like some help with my fantasy writing and I came here to get advice from some professionals. Any out there?
Subj: Re:avatars
Date: 95-09-07 21:31:47 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Radiant Shiningstar
I would not put myself above Shakespeare either. But I must ask you, what do you mean by uninitiated? Those of us who have never published a novel? I wonder.....
Subj: Cat fights and Magic
Date: 95-09-07 21:43:56 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
It is not my personal intention to attack anyone either. But, I am just sick and tired of the pseudo-intillectual elitists I keep running across on these boards. I too, would like to discuss fantasy. So I apologize if I scared anyone off. And I'll apologize for the last post, but I do wonder. At least I'm honest.
To change the subject to magic now... I do not think elemental magic is crap. Elemental magic is easy for a reader to understand, considering many readers of fantasy start at around age twelve. Quantum Physics would be interesting, but could be difficult to explain. How would one do that? I'll have to think on that one.
Subj: Re:discussing fantasy
Date: 95-09-07 21:51:05 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Let's discuss the economics and political structures of the worlds we're building. So far, I have one society whose government is their military, three monarchies, and a hierarchy governement. All of the societies are patriarchs except for the military governement. I've also created a new money system aside from the traditional gold and silver pieces. Instead, I've substituted crystilline shinder and onx keldin in their places. How about those of you also writing novels?
Subj: Re: Magic
Date: 95-09-08 09:28:05 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I do believe in magic in this world, but I think it takes unexpected forms...In other words, we don't know how to see it as magic in this world, because we're taught not to believe in it. The birth of a star is a kind of magic, the flight of a bird, the instinctive migration of any number of species, the sweep of Hurricane Luis and the "wind magic" that may keep him from ravaging Florida, or even me here in NC. Just because we think we know why or how these things occur, doesn't necessarily take the magic from them.
Whatever else you may think of it, elemental magic is just that -- elemental. It is, though I haven't followed this thought far enough to be completely clear how, somehow the base of all the other magics.
I am working on a novel now in which the ending is not the conquering of one world or people, or even the regeneration of a kingdom or nation, or the building of a legend. Instead, I want my people to realize that magic is not good or evil, it just is. They have been fighting what they see as an evil race of magicians for generations, only to find (in the course of the book) that they are, themselves, of that race, through an ancient marriage...
Does anyone have any comments on this line of thought/plot development? I think it will be difficult to do without getting boring, since it's a change of thought instead of a great battle, or some such thing. Any suggestions?
MaryAnne
PS let me register my relief that we have killed that recent thread...Airtime is too expensive for such things, at least for my budget...Thanks Wolf!
Subj: Re: Magic
Date: 95-09-08 13:07:53 EST
From: Sephas1
Posted on: America Online
Well let me start by saying this; I am probably one of the uninitiated. I am unpublished, except for one poem. Therefore I do not presume to be a proffesional. Still I consider myself a writer, and would argue the point with anyone.
Now on to the topics that have been suggested. Magic as far as quantum physics goes.. Well that is something I am currently undertaking. I wanted a system of magic completly differant from those that I have read, and I fell on this. It still has roots in the Elements. But it is more a manipulation of Chaos Theory than anything else. Not only is magic something that is rarely used in the world I am creating, but when it is used, it is a spiritual matter, and a form of touching "GOD".
MGobble, I like your idea, and in fact have also set out to do much of the same thing. The story itself is set around a character who will become legend in fact two characters. However, the main theme of the book is realising that everyone has reasons for doing what they do. My antagonist is not "An evil SunofaB" nor is he evil for evils sake. He simply has his idea of what is best for his race, and is following his own plan. This happens to involve serious retribution for crimes he feels were comited agianst his people by the humans. Not to mention the fact, that his belief system backs him up, when The Angel Of Death commands him to take action.
The polotics of the story is quite complex, and I have spent many hours developing it. In the north I have a Theocracy, which is trying to convert the neighboring Monarchies into following thier system, using spiritualism as a means. Below ground, I am not sure what you would call it, but there is a ruling class, based upon the seven bloodlines. Each of these families has people representing them in the Council of Seven. Seven males and Seven Females sit on this council, and each persons vote is worth so much. (Because it is a male dominate scociety, women only carry a half vote) .. In order to advance in this scociety, you must challenge the person you wish to replace, to combat. The first person to bleed, loses all rank, and is sent to the Gladiators pit. There they must face one of the gladiators. The council then votes whether they should face the General Pool, or a Family Gladiator (Usually the best around) This system incorperates both physical strength, prowess with weapons, as well as strategy and being a good debater. If you wanted to challenge someone, you want to make sure they are not in favor with the majority, as well as if you lose, you want most of the council voting for a pool gladiator. Thus giving you the best chance to regain status and challenge again.
The theocracy itself is not quite that. The church is loosly based upon Chritinaity, and they are just now gaining power in the north. They have one kingdom under thier wing, and are almost ready to take political power there.
The only people who use magic, are those of the Bloodline previously mentioned, and only a few of them, and some druids above ground. These people do not realise that they are manipulating the chaotic pattern of the universe, but they do. Only the main character will find this out when the moment of realization comes. (Yes, he will come face to face with "GOD" and realise that it is him)
The big battle betwixt good and evil comes when the main character realizes the true reality of "GOD" and discovers another person who has found the truth. Now this other person has been driven mad, and is showing serious signs of Multiple Personality Disorder. He makes many apperances in the book, often times even helping the Protagonist to discover who and what he really is. There will be quite a few skirmishes between the differant scocieties, as well as differant views with in each scociety.
Subj: Re: Magic
Date: 95-09-08 13:21:31 EST
From: Sephas1
Posted on: America Online
Because I have a habbit of being long winded, I will make a second post to finish up.
One of my favorites is The Knight Of Izzu, who at first apears to be a pompus bragart who's only intention is to convert the local "Pagans" to the worship of Izzu. Upon looking deeper, you find that he is a normal person who was thrown into a scociety that looks at him sideways and with a bit of hatred in thier eyes. Faced with no friends, and no allies, he simply fell back on that which has allowed him to survive before. His religeous beleifs, and an air of being better.
Also, despite the fact that the Protagonist is a half-breed of two warring races, he is very much an animal of his upbringing. His views and morals are mostly human, despite his Zar heritage.
Also, despite the Zar tendancy towards violence, there is a splinter group who wish peace between themselves and humans, and would only like to live above ground.
Through these political manipulations and minor squirmishes, I have endeavored to provide a central theme, and that is to think for yourself. My main character will not end up ruling anything. Actually, the fact that he is a half breed will prevent it. Not to mention he does not seek rule. However, there is a person who will end up being King, and he is the Second part of my trio. He of course does not want it, but situation will force it.
My characters start out life in adult hood, already having careers and stable lives. (except for the protagonist who is fleeing his home after being falsly accused of murder by his best friend) But even he is already an adult, and has formulated most of his moral beleifs. The story is not about coming of age, nor will there be any "Cute" romantic scenes. I have nothing against these, but am striving for something else. Yes there will be a strong female character, and yes the protagonist will fall in love, as well as the second part of my trio. However, she is not a victem, nor is she a queen. She lives with a pack of wolves and was brought up by a druid. She was outcast as a babe for having an ability to communicate telepathically. The druid took her in, and raised her. While living a life of solitude with the old man, she developed a strong bond with the wolves whom she could communicate with. Her goal is simply to avenge the death of the druid. (he is murdered by the antagonist) This also has political reprecussions which I will not get into. Some of the joy of writing is keeping the secrets till the very end! :-) But needless to say, I do not feel that Fantasy needs to proscribe to any formula. It is Fantasy, and therefore should be so. Is my world based upon Mideavil Europe? Sure, it's a good frame of referance. Do I have a terrestrial base? Sure, "God" encompases the entire universe in this story. Is this an alternate Earth or some other planet? Who can say. Its really never mentioned. Do I feel good about what I am writing despite these things... Darn tootin! <g> Sure I do.. otherwise I wouldn't write it. Am I in it for monetary gain? I would be a liar if I said I didn't want to get paid for it, but I write for myself regardless of the market. In fact I havn't even begun to explore the market yet. I will do that when the MS is finished. How far am I? Well, just scrapped 30,000 words and started over again, am now 20,000 words into it... and still working...
Seph
(The lurker) <g>
Subj: Re:Magic is alive and well
Date: 95-09-08 22:29:02 EST
From: TJ Cricket
Posted on: America Online
I'm new to this area but have been reading the posts for awhile and I am compelled to respond.
Wolfsrunn- I have to comment on your beautiful post. (written back in 95-08-31) I was deeply moved and your words gave my heart the voice it might never have. I pity those who dismissed your words as the rambling on of a dreamer. I am a dreamer, I suppose. That is the life blood that poetry and all good writing comes from. If man had not the ability to dream, how could he live through a day in the "Concrete World?" What would our ambitions come to? Magic is not a word for the inexplainable, perhaps that is only a part of it. Magic is something that exisits, certainly not the sorceror-type in so many fantasy novels, but in another form in this world *man* created.
How can someone not at least remotely believe in something that they write about! Sure, the stories are not true, this is fiction after all. And I'm not saying that you go rambling on about seeing dragons flying across the sky, for certainly you would be pointed in the direction of a mental institution. But you must *believe*, in a writer's sense, or else you are lying to yourself and mocking the dream that other fantasy writers hold. Do not destroy the dream!
Wolfsrunn, you are no fool. Your eyes see beyond reality, and you, like I, continue to dream of that "other" world. What else is there to believe in?
TJ Cricket
Subj: Re: Magic
Date: 95-09-08 22:39:11 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Seph,
It sounds like you have an interesting novel started there! It's good you've thought of the many different aspects of the world you've created. I think that characters, setting, religions and the various political and economical structures of the world you build are very important for any novel. But it seems that hack and slash fantasy has a bigger market these days. <sigh>. I had a gentle reader critique the first five chapters of my novel no less than a month back who said: "Geez, it's well written and all, but it's terribly boring!" It was my mother who said this. She wanted more action. More blood and guts. I told her not to worry about it. There are plenty of pages for battles and fighting. But first, I want to establish the world and get the plot rolling. Besides, I don't think it's boring at all.
Good luck Seph! It's my opinion that anyone who is writing a novel or who has written several but not sent them in (you know who you are and I know your reading this!) has a lot of ambition and determination. Never, ever give up. Do not falter because eventually, someone will publish your stuff.
Zahrima
P.S. (Subliminal message for my art director- Send it to an agent... you're stalling! It's good! The worst she could say is NO.)
Subj: Re:Magic.
Date: 95-09-09 08:37:11 EST
From: AHDN64
Posted on: America Online
Read "Daughter of Prophecy" by Anne Bush to find a new type of magic.
Subj: Catfights
Date: 95-09-09 14:54:32 EST
From: RadiantStr
Posted on: America Online
Although I could stand here and write a long-winded post pointing fingers, as both Katryn and Zahrima have, I'll choose not to, thank you. I will say that I am sorry I allowed myself to be drawn into this childish behavior by the feeling that if I didn't answer the constant attacks, I wouldn't ever be able to post on this board at all.
As for the remark about taking it to e-mail, that's how this all started. I expressed a personal opinion, and was suddenly deluged by the most insulting, offensive load of e-mail I've ever seen.
While I'm being sorry for things, I'm sorry that advice such as "learn from those who have accomplished what you want" seems to have shattered everyone's fantasies that they're the next J.R.R. Tolkien, or whatever. Pardon me if you think that knowing one has to be as practical about writing as about any job makes me "lofty". All it really makes me is a former English teacher who is now applying those rules to a new career.
For the elite who have nothing better to do than bash other genres that don't meet their "standards", I suggest you trot on over to the Romance Writers board. You will never meet a wittier, friendlier, more erudite group of people in your life.
And Katryn, you should be so lucky as to have people by your books by the basketload.
Radiant Shiningstar
Subj: Re:Magic
Date: 95-09-09 16:29:26 EST
From: Aerae
Posted on: America Online
Wolf,
I salute you on your bravery to break up the on-line argument, and I thank those involved for letting us get on with it. I agree with Cricket on his response to your magic post. If only there were more dreamers in the world . . . For anyone who hasn't yet guessed I suppose I too am one of the uninitiated, but like Sephas I still call myself a writer and will debate with anyone who decides otherwise. I personally think that our level of experience, the number of rejections and acceptances we have do not matter. What does is the fact that all of us, from the youngest to the oldest, can all meet in one area. We love to read and write, and we're all dreamers to a certain extent. If we weren't we would be writing non-fiction, or contemporary straight fiction -- not the imaginitve and escapist fantasy we do. It's not called fantastic fiction for nothing. I hope we can remember the fact that we can agree on one thing when disagreements and differences of opinion come up.
I'll step down off my soap box now.
Aerae
Subj: various
Date: 95-09-09 16:53:43 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Sephas, Why did you scrap any of it? Usually material that turns out not to fit in one place can be recycled in another (the glories of word processing...)
Z, I have to agree with you that this board attracts more than the population norm of the ego-ridden. We've got one who believes she's 'initiated' and I guess we're not; another who declares herself a "gifted and published" writer. Hard to believe.
Wolfie, Very few people have the stomach for conflict. Very few people have the gumption to take sides, even if one side is morally reprehensible or obviously wrong. Most people would like to hang back & have things never change, as I learned during my divorce. My ex would do all kinds of hateful things to me, such as trying to *kill me*, which were accepted as fact by people who would excuse him by saying, "He must have his reasons."
Cricket, there are a lot of people writing successfully about subjects they do not believe in. Consider Anne Rice, who surely does not believe in vampirism.
If you want to see the concrete and steel 'concrete world' I inhabit on a regular basis, try the Web Crawler, search "qci", click on "manufacturing sites", choose Dayton & you'll come up with an aerial view of an industrial hell. Yet when I leave, I write convincing (saleable) fantasy. Sometimes I even write *there*, at lunch, with thousands of pounds of noxious chemicals in reactors 5 stories above my head...and enjoy both worlds, making the numbers come together in analysis AND making characters and plots work well. Not all of us are looking for an escape.
All--Much as I enjoy writing and reading fantasy, I believe *magic* does not exist other than a fictional device. Believe what you must, but insisting that magic exists because of a mystical experience with nature, or because you think that it *must* exist is a slippery mental attitude, all part of the prevalent flight from reason in this society.
Subj: from the unitiated (???)
Date: 95-09-09 17:22:01 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
I'm glad Hissy spared us a long post (236 words to my 156 words on 7Sep95). BTW, I reported her Snotteries to the TOS people. She didn't mention *that*. She had no defenses for her views, so she made (bad) guesses and tried to insult me with them.
I have respect for anyone who makes a living writing anything...but popularity does not equal quality. It only indicates popularity. Does anyone here think that "Married With Children is wonderful television? Never forget that Hitler got into national office by *popular* vote.
Gosh, will we ever find out why she is "initiated" and some of the rest of us are not?
Harlequin romances were scribed by a stable of authors; hence a grocery cart full of them has nothing to do with the output of a single writer. There is a concept of "quality before quantity", still believed by some. Not all, obviously.
Subj: Re:Magic
Date: 95-09-09 20:13:38 EST
From: TJ Cricket
Posted on: America Online
Umm.... I just thought I'd have to speak out on my womanhood. I am a *she* not a *he* Aerae! That TJ at the beginning of my screen name are my first two intials (Tamara Jean) and sometimes nickname. Cricket is just one of my characters nicknames; also a cool and unusual name.
Since Wolf hasn't welcomed me yet, I suppose I'll introduce myself. Please don't change your judgement of me, but I'm only 15. Fifteen going on thirty-two with years of wisdom behind her, that is! But my age changes nothing, right? That opens another interesting question and topic of discussion. Do you know how sucessful teen writers can be? Do editors have less respect for young writers? I mean, do they take their stories less seriously? Not that I plan on getting published any time soon but I think that serious writing shouldn't be something strictly reserved for the older group. What do you think?
TJ Cricket
KatrynK (the realist)- The world is not all we think it is. Just because we're of some dominant, powerful species doesn't mean we know everything. Look beyond the horizon, because, you know what?, the world doesn't end there, and things happen in places that you will never see. Most of us might never have been to Siberia but we believe it is there because others say it is so. Just because I or no one else has seen (or, I mean, been to) a world beyond ours doesn't mean that one does not exisit!
Subj: Re:Magic
Date: 95-09-09 23:12:05 EST
From: Sephas1
Posted on: America Online
Well first to Katryn; I scrapped the first 30,000 words because I decided to shift the beginning of the book further into the past, allowing more time for character development. Also when it came down to it, I was happier with the re-write than I was with the previous stuff. I do keep some of that 30,000 floating around on the word processor, but starting earlier in time has taken the story in a new and differant direction. Hence, the scrap.
Magic in and of itself, I have many opinions on. However, as a fantasy writer, I am not that inclined to try and prove my views, or even use them in my stories. (As far as magic goes) .. Personally I happen to think that there is something out there. You could call it magic, or Magick (As some prefer) or luck, maybe coincodence etc.. Regardless of scientific proof, I still side with Shakespeare. (Watch out, fumbled quote comeing up! :-) )
"There are more things under Heaven and Earth Horatio, than are dreamed of in all of your philosophies." <-- Great line..
That should say it all for me....
Now for TJ. I have no idea to be honest. I would only suggest that when sending querry letters to agents, skip telling them your age. They don't need to know, and therefore will not judge you based upon it. I think the only advantage an older writer would have, would be experiance, or just plain "life smarts" (Could think of no other way to describe it) .. But if the MS is good, I would guess agent and publisher would take it.
Seph.
Subj: age
Date: 95-09-10 02:31:28 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Wasn't Gaskell published at 16?
Subj: Finally
Date: 95-09-10 08:35:01 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
As for Katryn's post about belief and magic: I think Anne Rice does belive in vampirism, even if only at the times she is writing about it. I have found that in order to write successfully, you have to emerse yourself in the world you are creating. In order to create, you have to first be able to visualize. As for magic, I belive in it. Mainly because I don't think that magic has to be something huge that has the potential to change the world. I think that magic is everywhere, and even when we do encounter it, we probably don't recognize it.
As for Cricket, I am only 17 myself and I am in the process of submitting some work to publishers. It is true that if they know you are only 17 (or 15) they might get a little standoffish. So just send them your work and don't give your age until they ask. You want them to look at your work objectively.
Kira
PS Cricket, I would like to read some of your stories if you don't mind. Please e-mail me.
Subj: initiation
Date: 95-09-10 08:35:44 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
By the way, how do you get initiated?
Subj: critique
Date: 95-09-10 08:40:02 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
To RadientStr. please e-mail me, I tried to mail you and couldn't. I have a question for you. Rickellen@aol.com
Subj: Re:initiation
Date: 95-09-10 09:49:43 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Only Radiant Star knows. Ask her.
Subj: flight from reason
Date: 95-09-10 11:53:47 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Rick--I could be wrong, but my impression of AR is that IWtV was hatched out after 10 years of alcoholism following the tragic death of her young son. As fond as I am of the vampire genre --I'm an industrial-strength fan of "Forever Knight"-- I think any 20th century first world person who believes that there are creatures biting necks and feeding on blood is delusional.
Cricket--Behind my middle-of-the-city house begins a 20-acre tract of woods, too steeply pitched for construction. A breeding herd of unicorns could be hiding in there, but I doubt it.
There are a lot of poorly understood aspects of nature (ball lightning, for example), but since that is true does not mean that the lack of unicorn hoofprints in my woods and everywhere else is not evidence that unicorns *may* exist; it's strong evidence that they *do not* exist.
I've never seen Lake Baikal, either. If one chooses to believe *only* what one has personally seen or experienced, then the door is flung wide open to throw out most human knowledge. One can then readily believe that Hitler was a sweet guy who liked dogs and small children (blonde ones, anyway--that's the sort he smiles at in the old films) & had nothing to do with mass extermination of Jews, Gypsies and political malcontents. One can also believe that the stars are lanterns affixed to the bowl of the sky, lit nightly by night sprights, and that the Moon landings are the stuff of legend.
I'm not mocking you. Perhaps you've never considered where this line of thought takes you. We're free to believe what we wish, but this prevalent flight from reason takes us back to the times when literacy almost vanished and books were rare.
You have never seen me. Why do you believe that I exist?
Subj: Re:flight from reason
Date: 95-09-10 12:38:14 EST
From: Sephas1
Posted on: America Online
Katryn, I just have to say this, I respect your views, and I understand where you are coming from. However, being once considered material for a mental institution by one Phsychologist, then being released by another as a "Clasic mistake of the system" , I have done quite a bit of thinking on the term "Insane" .
A lot of my ideas towards Magic, and any other such unexplained phenomena takes it's root in quantum physics. (After all, I am the son of a Mathematician and computer programmer, science has always been highlighted in my life) ... One of the things I keep falling back on, is the simple principal that in the quantum world, that which we call reality, does not exist. I shall point out the obvious ones... Color for example is only the wave length of light, reflected off of an object. At the molecular level, the light itself brakes down into BOTH a partical and a wave. i.e. it is two differant things at the same time. Not to mention, once you go past the wavelength, and look at light as either particle or wave, color ceases to exist. Yet we experiance our reality in color, and because everyone can see it, it is reality.
Secondly, tempeture. Something we all feel, especially durring winter and summer months... Tempeture is mearly the energy given off by the friction of particles. Atoms themselves hold NO tempeture, because they are what causes tempeture. Therefore, that burning piece of wood that scorches your hand and blisters your fingers, is not in truth hot. Nor is an ice cube cold. (At least not at the sub atomic level) therefore this world that we live in, is colorless, odorless, without tempeture, and despite the fact that my computer desk does not make it's way downtown, always in motion.
Just as you said to Cricket, I will say to you; I am not mocking you, mearly trying to point out, that just because that hairy man on the side of the road is the only person to see the purple bunny rabbit, does not mean that it doesn't exist.
Do I beleive in magic in the superstitious sence? No, not really. Do I beleive in casting a spell, then forgetting about it, and the subconcious makes it happen? Sure. Do I think that there are things out there that I have not seen, experianced, encountered, or even heard about? Sure.
After all, I still have a hard time figuring out Schrodingers Cat.
(The one that is both alive and dead at the same time) I still have trouble grasping the concept of curved time. Not to mention the fact that a black hole, will apear to remain a black hole for eternity. (On the event horizon, time is curved to the point of stopage) Yet for the black hole itself, it will shortly die out and disapear.
In my personal opinion, there is no line between sanity and insanity. In the words of Einstien, Reality is Relevant to the Observer. What I see, may not be what you see, but because I am the only one to see it, does not give it any less credance in this reality.
Okay I have spouted enuf! Sorry :-)
Seph
Subj: Hairballs of Schrodinger's Cat
Date: 95-09-10 14:20:46 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Sephas, you would have enjoyed the look on *my* therapist's face when I told her I knew most of the *real* witches in the area.
Schrodinger's cat is great fun, and so is reflecting on the fact that most of what we see as solid matter is empty space, but there comes a point where Uncertainty has to be swept aside, or Bad Things *will* happen.
There you are, driving 75 mph down the interstates, and the 18-wheeler in the adjacent lane begins crossing over most unexpectedly into your lane. Well, you're free to reflect that most of its tonnage is open space and that it may not really be an 18-wheeler at all or perhaps you may not exist at all. Most of us will choose to apply the brakes and steer, however, which is a healthy and normal thing to do. However, if the last thing we did before we got into the car was walk deosil about the vehicle and cast a brake-pad restoring spell, *visualize* a full reservoir of brake fluid and adequate tread on the tires, we may well end up as splattered protoplasm. Sad but true.
I'm a pragmatic chemist. I don't believe in fantasy. I write in the fantasy genre.
Subj: Re:age
Date: 95-09-10 18:10:32 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
I've known a lot of young writers who write very well. If I was an editor, I would not take age into consideration. It's the writing that counts. :)
Subj: Re:Hairballs of Schrodinger's Ca
Date: 95-09-10 19:14:29 EST
From: TJ Cricket
Posted on: America Online
KatrynK- I would like to see *what* kind of fantasy *you* write. I'm beginning to see that you are not at all an open-minded person. (this has nothing to do with being PC) If you are open minded then you believe that anything, and I mean *anything* could happen. As the old aphorism goes- Nothing is impossible.
Did I say that just because I don't see something means I believe it doesn't exist? On the contrary, I was saying just the opposite. Please don't be like my mother and interpret things the way you want to hear/read them.
TJ Cricket
Katrynk- Umm... how do I say this but do you have any kind of religion? Let me guess, atheism?
Isn't the fact that we were created from nothing is in itself magic? Isn't the fact that we are alive magical?
No hard feelings (ehem...ehem...)
Subj: Re:Hairballs of Schrodinger's Ca
Date: 95-09-10 20:19:12 EST
From: Sephas1
Posted on: America Online
I must say, I like the title. :-) While I am not a person who casts spells over thier car, I do beleive it possible for strange and unexplained things to happen. I don't count on them.
I don't think I would go as far as to say that you are close minded, nor even set in your beleifs. Personally, if it weren't for people who beleive as you, I would never be able to reaffirm my own beleifs in discussions such as this. However, I am not too sure what "Beleifs" have to do with writing Fantasy, nor even using magic in your writing.
I would like to see some of your writing. It could very well be that your disbeleif that tosses your material into that area where new ideas are found. It could also be the thing that tosses it in the other direction. I don't know, and I can't say... (Not really sure where this post is going yet!)
Such as many words, Magic means many differant things to many differant people, and it is impossible to stereotype it. As stated before, I am basing my magical system on the scientific world, and hopefully by having imagination as well as knowledge can come up with something that is plausable and new. I think how you use magic in a novel, should be based upon what it will mean to the novel itself. In fact, there are quite a few Fantasy novels that don't incorperate Magic in any way shape or form. It is mearly a tool to breath life into a world. Another facet on the diamond so to say. Just as foreshadowing and scenery, Magic is only a tool. Unless you want to specialize in a paticular theme stating that magic exists in the world, it really shouldn't matter whether or not you beleive in it. It's not paramount to good Fantasy.
Welp, I've said my piece... :-)
Seph
Subj: grooming the hair from the cat
Date: 95-09-10 21:33:48 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Cricket--
If you wish to see some of my writing, I have a story, "Just Like You" in the August/September issue of Moonletters. It's a humorous story --and the lead story in this issue-- dealing with one of my mainstay characters Qoreyeh, who also figures in my novels. Moonletters is available for $2 the single copy at 6334 South Long, Chicago, Illinois 60638. (No, I don't print it. I don't even live in Illinois or personally know the editor.)
Also due out shortly --I have a letter out to the editor to confirm the publication date-- is the story "Inheritance" in *Sorcerous*. I've sent stories out via cyberspace to several people here, but since you've indulged in *ad hominem* remarks and guesses instead of dealing with the issues, I won't do that since you'll only be looking for resemblances to your mom or whatever. But you can send $2 to Chicago to see what an editor thought was worth ink and paper!
Both stories deal with magic. Lots of magic. The use and misuse of magic. Trickery. Deceit. Magic is *real* in these tales. The novels contain two distinct systems of magic.
Not even in Fantasy does *anything go*. *Good* fantasy follows internal rules of its own. Ever read an account of someone else's dream-memories? Even to the dreamer, the recollections may not make much sense and the symbolism may be obscure; when someone else reads them, they may be nearly incoherent, i.e., anything goes. Fantasy writing is *not* like a dream. Every successful Fantasy writer I can think of devised worlds or settings with their own rules, and they do not break them. *Deus ex machina* solutions only serve to infuriate and annoy the Gentle Reader.
Even simple lapses are annoying; if the hero's horse on p 74 is a chestnut mare with a snaffle bit, he better not be riding a bay gelding wearing a hackamore on page 86 a little farther down the mountain. Such discontinuities may not affect the story but they distract the reader and break the suspension of belief. *Story-affecting* lapses are disastrous in tale-telling. Nope, anything does not go.
I've put time and thought into setting up the rules of my created universe. I have the usual maps and genealogies, and I applied my knowledge of genetics to generate a complex inheritance of magical talent, based on the genetic material in maternal mitochondria and a series of genes which act similarly to the inheritance of skin pigments. Nowhere is this bit of biochemistry discussed or alluded to (my characters are pre-industrial types, and their notions of science are empirical), but its consequences affect the characters.
Sephas, I'll ship you a story if you'll privately send me e-mail about what file types you can use/convert AND promise to send me something of yours (that is fair, isn't it?) AND promise not to forward anything to anyone else.
Subj: Re:Cricket
Date: 95-09-11 07:21:03 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Sorry it has taken me time to welcome you, Cricket...
And yet...WELCOME!
I am happy to see that you have chosen to stick with the board and am happy to see that another dreamer has entered the ranks.
Keep dreaming, and penning those dreams,
Wolf
Subj: Re:Rickellen
Date: 95-09-11 07:22:50 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Welcome to the board.
I am Wolfsrunn, and I created this board for those who are aspiring to write fantasy. I hope that we shall hear from you (both of you?) as often as you please. :)
Wolf
Subj: Re:flight from reason
Date: 95-09-11 10:37:14 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
FLight from Reason, and loving it every moment!
Katryn,
The 'corns behind your house do not leave footprints for the simple reason that Unicorns, being magical creatures, do not leave hoofprints, or any other sign of their passage. From mystical folklore, we can see that the 'corns do not even like being seen, much less leave a hint of their existence!
To all---
I must admit that I am prone to believe in magic, and that there is something else out there other then what is set in stone, determinable, and able to be replicated. What of the cases of spiritual phenomena and those feats beyond imagination that have little explanation? I think that at one time there was much more to this world then any of us can imagine, or think to discover no matter what we unearth from the land's embrace. A part of process, of moving onward and through the milennium invoilves trampling over what has come before (sadly). Who is to say that Unicorns did not once exist, and even perhaps behind Karen's house!
to say that of course, is only in jest, but why not believe if you want to. I have studied psychology extensively, and have found that science itself isd not set in stone, and at times becomes illogical and erratic. This is the arena of discovery and the most exciting aspect of what might otherwise be seen as cold, hard, and oftimes boring, logic!
(And I do not even want to hear from someone who thinks that psychology is not a "hard" science. I will not even respond to such a rediculous debate)
The point that I am trying to make is that there is something that exists or existed at one time that is beyond us. I feel that it can be called magic, or if you like, mysticism. Altered metaphysical states, and phenomena psychological experiences, etc...
This is not to say that I am a shaman, or a warlock. I live in a very mundane and logical world, I only seek that which is beyond our understanding, and interesting to me!
I find it fascinating that the bulk of the members of this board are female. I wonder if this indicates that the Fantasy audience is becoming a predominantly female genre. Interesting, but then, there have always been heroins and heroes equally in my books. In fact, I find it more interesting and challenging to write from a heroin's perspective, though I must constantly ask my girlfriends, "what would you think if?" and "What would you do here?" :)
I am glad to see all the interest in the board, and hope that it will continue through the pockets of strife that I HOPE have been surpassed and left behind.
Keep dreaming,
Wolf
Subj: So much to answer to!
Date: 95-09-11 15:33:11 EST
From: Paradys1
Posted on: America Online
First of all to Sephas1 for your post on 9/10 (re:flight from reason). You made some excellent points. (by the way this is Rickellen, like my new name?) Katryn, I belive something exists until someone proves it's not. I see you as a cynic, how can you not belive? Magic is everywhere. But as far as her writing goes TJ, she is rather good. You don't nessesarily have to belive in magic or unicorns to write about it, but if you want to draw the reader into the story, you have to be drawn in as well. I had strange dreams about dragons and clouds for a week after writing Clouds. But it still seems as if we are all getting a little snippy on this board with each other, but at least it's intellegent and interesting banter. Like Katryn, your comment about incongruities in stories, I know exactly what you're talking about. I have read the vampire chronicles up to Queen of the Damned and have found about 5 or 6. Although I loved the books, it did distract me.
Kira (aka Rickellen)
PS Thank you to Wolfsrunn for welcoming me, I'm happy to be here. And Sephas (and anyone else) if you wish to e-mail me again, please send it to Paradys1.
Subj: Back to my humble self
Date: 95-09-11 18:24:45 EST
From: TJ Cricket
Posted on: America Online
Ahhhhh! Okay, I'm back in control. I apoligize, deeply, Katryn, for any hostile remarks I may have made. I go back a day later and read the post I wrote and think 'What were you thinking? How could you be so bitter?' Well, I'm sorry. Despite all my misgivings, I can be an apologetic and forgiving person. All personal opinions aside, I'm sure you are a very good writer.
Cutting back to the chase, I have another question for y'all. Do you ever come to the point where you start to love this world you created so much that you begin imaging yourself there, even conversing with your characters and having them treat you like a god, because, after all, you created them? Have you ever imagined even writing a story like that? I did, once, at the time before sleep when your mind thinks the most, and for me, my imagination is at it's most creative. I think that would be completely exalting if I could somhow step into that world.
Also, I think I want to tell you how I came up with the idea of the world I created. Believe it or not, I created the world before I created any characters. It's called the Six Worlds of Karrah, which all started with a country named Temar. I live in Colorado, near the mountains, and my father owned a piece a property up there. I loved it so much that it became magical to me. I even started pretending that it was another world and I named it Temar. That was how it all started, and Temar grew into the Six Worlds. So every time I go up there, I feel I am a part of Temar, a part of this other world. When you are alone and surround by trees with nothing but the music of birds singing to disturb the silence, and the only smells are the earthy, dew-dropped ones, then you feel the concrete reality of urbanization slip away and you can believe in *magic.* You can see that other world, and your imagination can run wild.
Phew... Well, I was wondering, in case my point was lost, how do the rest of you create your worlds? And what comes first, the world or the people in it?
TJ Cricket
Subj: Worlds within Worlds....
Date: 95-09-11 22:08:41 EST
From: Sephas1
Posted on: America Online
... in a spiral array, a pattern so grand and complex... Sorry tis a Rush tune and had to finish the line... TJ, as far as my world goes, the characters came first. However, the whole thing is based loosely upon a D&D campaign which I had no part in creating, other than being a character in it. Despite the fact that the DM admits that he did very little creation, and just played upon what I and the other player conversed about, I still beleive that he is the one who created it. The world itself came about when I sat down and said "Well I have all of these people, what kind of a place would they live in?" .. The political struggles come about from silly little questions like "If there was a Satanist, who WANTED to be sacrificed, would he be protected by The Freedom of Religeon Laws?" And I just work from there. My main character will be running into discrimination due to his heritage, and since I am a member of the Majority (White Male) I have very little experiance to draw on there, however I can do with it what I want.
Don't exactly know what that last has to do with anything but heck I posted it anyway..As far as woods go, yes, I too find it very easy to loose myself to imagination when I am imursed in the seclusion of The Upper Paninsala (I am not concerned about spelling obviously<g>) The point where dreams are just a hopeful wish, yet consiousness seems almost as far away, is one of my favorite times of the night. My purest wishes come true and anything I want to do, I can. This is also the time when I play scenes over in my head to see how they look and sound. That reason is also why I keep a tape recorder very near my bed... If something doesn't look write, I don't put it into the book. However, somethings that looked great the night before, transcend into words very badly and I have quite a bit of editing to do.. But that is all part of being a writer... I would be a fool to think it was perfect the first time around. However I do have a problem with being a perfectionist, or at least my worst critic... I am never satisfied.. Any ideas from anyone on this would be a great help...
Seph
Subj: Re: Dreamers
Date: 95-09-12 14:37:50 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
Aera --
If we weren't all dreamers, we wouldn't be writers at all...
Subj: Re: Dreamers
Date: 95-09-13 00:08:36 EST
From: TrboTurtle
Posted on: America Online
Time to add some of my .02........
Over the last several months, I have been lurking here, reading the posts, following the debates, cringing at the flame wars, and generally just happy to be reading things from people who enjoy fantasy as much as I do.
As to who I am: I'm Male, 32 years old, and trying to get a job in the programming field. While I'm looking, I work as a pizza delivery driver. I have alot of time on the road to think and plot. I have co-written and written some items, sci-fi gaming stuff, that have been published.
While I have not had much luck in transfering my stories to the written word so far, reading this and other folders does help engage that part of my creative drive, and I'm good for several hours of writing.
Now to dreams.........
Fantasy is one of the hardest forms of writing, IMO, because EVERYTHING must come from inside the writer. While books on armor and castles, or lives in a rual socity can help, the settings must be the writer's own. He or she decides what's in his world and what isn't, with no fear of the reader saying to themselves "That's not right" or "That's Impossible". The reader places themselves in a COMPLEATE suspension of belief, making Fantasy one of the few forms that require such a suspension of belief.
Dreams are a intergal part of Fantasy, because there is no solid, documented basis to a fantasy story. A Science Fiction story can start with the question "What if someone invented X ?", and take it from there. Fantasy is more nebulous, requiring more of a creative thought. Logic has a place, but only in as far as keeping things consistent in the story.
Please forgive me. I am somewhat tired, and I rambled a bit. Thank you for your time and trouble in reading this.
Turtle
Subj: Re:Back to my humble self
Date: 95-09-13 19:10:13 EST
From: Paradys1
Posted on: America Online
TJ, I find that most of my story ideas come from my overactive imagination. I am a daydreamer, I'll slink into my own little world anytime I don't have to pay attention to anything else (sometimes even when I do!). Sometimes I'll have a really cool fantasy and decide to make a story out of it. That also helps when developing characters because I can spend all day dreaming about them and giving them personality and background. It also helps in writing cause then I can see where I'm taking this person or that plotline and make it work. But sometimes I'm inspired by other things too. With my latest short, I was totally caught off guard. I was up at Kenyon College this summer and looking out the window enjoying the day. I was trying to identify the shapes I saw in the clouds when I saw what looked like the foot of a dragon. Then I thought, "What if I wrote a story about a dragon made of clouds that terrorized a village?" and that's how Clouds was born. Sometimes I get ideas from the weirdest places!
Subj: fantasywriting or fantasybelief?
Date: 95-09-14 22:10:10 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Every interview with or article written by Pillars of Fantasy describes a process of creation which sounds quite deliberate, and anything but free-form. Katherine Kurtz may have started with a dream which gave her *some* of the characters and elements of the Deryni books, but from there she fleshed the story out with much concrete detail, which must have required much thoughtful work on a conscious level.
Reading Tolkien's notes and letters also reveals a creative process which is anything but dreamy. Tolkien doesn't even come across as much fun to be around.
All the chatter about believing the unreal and indulging in the belief of *magic* makes me wonder how much attention the participants and lurkers here have given to the working of the fantasy marketplace. An editor will choose to use your story not because you're an ace dreamer but because you have committed to the written word prose which effectively takes the reader to a created world and holds him there with characters and plot which engage his emotions. I also have to wonder how much some of us want to *write* fantasy and how much they want to *believe* in fantasy.
Effective fantasy is highly structured and adheres to its own internal rules...it's not fluffy, free-form creative writing.
Subj: Re:fantasywriting or fantasybeli
Date: 95-09-14 22:45:17 EST
From: TrboTurtle
Posted on: America Online
Maybe that's why I'm having trouble with my writing..... B-D
Turtle
Subj: Re:fantasywriting or fantasybeli
Date: 95-09-15 17:20:27 EST
From: TJ Cricket
Posted on: America Online
Writing in itself is a creative process. I don't care how much you say a writer outlines and constructs his story, writing is not physical, muscle straining work. (with the expection a writer's cramp and eye strain. :-) A story is not something you create so much with your hands but with your mind. Sure, your hands type or write out the words but first the story must develop in your head. If, say, your job is making potholders for a living, then there is really no creative development in that. You don't continue to make potholders hoping that one day you'll be the best potholder maker in the world. It really doesn't involve much mental thinking and reflecting. On the other hand, a story develops in your mind, not in your hands, and the whole mental process involved in that will most likely include some sort of reflection or "dreaming." Writing is not about getting published, which is certainly something you certainly can't be dreamy or "fluffy" about. At this point, I could really care less about sending my work in to an editor and getting it published. And since I don't have that to worry about, I can be as free-form as I want.
TJ Cricket
Subj: manuscripts in drawers
Date: 95-09-15 19:46:27 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Cricket--
Of course writing is a creative process. But creative does not mean formless or without structure, even though it has taken on that meaning in popular use. "Creative" does not apply only to artsy endeavors, either, even though artsy types commonly make that assumption. Great human ingenuity and breakthrough thinking were required to build Stonehenge, devise geometry to reset property lines after the annual Nile flooding, design Concorde or the SR-71.
Cricket, you are of course free to labor alone. But consider for a moment if all of the authors you have enjoyed and admired had chosen *not* to publish. A story or book unpublished is a tale unshared. Orwell said, "We write to discover what we think," but we also write to communicate and *share*. The very best writers can make us know and feel things we might never experience otherwise. Their characters become part of us, much like old friends. Had such writers remained unpublished, consider all that you would have missed. Don't leave your writing in a drawer.
And don't be so hard on potholder-makers. Everything you do should be the best you can do at that task. I'm a chromatographer, which means that I have to pull together diverse skills of making arcane sciency software work, do micro-plumbing in stainless steel or plastic, statistically evaluate data, troubleshoot the whole mess when it doesn't work, which is often, and then, final data in hand, I typically have to explain what it means to non-technical business types or to engineers (who understand nearly no chemistry). But if someone strolls into the lab with a problem solvable by a simple titration, yes, the same acid-base kind of titration most people do in high school chemistry, then I set up a burette and give that task the same kind of painstaking attention that I give chromatography. I have to sign my name to every bit of analysis that I do, and I want to sign off on that work with *pride* and confidence. BTW, I don't make potholders, but I do make afgans, and I never ever use anybody else's patterns. I make my own.
Subj: Re:new ideas
Date: 95-09-16 02:15:33 EST
From: Lastryc
Posted on: America Online
There are two writers here.
Lastryc first.
I believe that the use of dreams can be a great way to to sort out what has been going on up in the skull in the first place. Think about the feelings and the sensations derived from the dreamworld, it can take one very far with descriptive writing ecspecially.
Second writer: Jackrabit(Jd)
I'm from Lawrence, KS and fifty percent of our culture is held in William S.Borroughs. he recently composed a book full of only dreams. Great stuff. Check it out.
Next a psycology point. I have heard dreams are only remembered if you don't finish the REM mode of your sleep. You don't finish your dream. This might lead to problems of writing an ending.
Subj: Things not so nice....
Date: 95-09-16 18:06:54 EST
From: DARKERWOOD
Posted on: America Online
Fantasy Writers......
We're looking to publish your short fantasy stories (up to 2,500 words) with story lines focusing on lying, cheating, stealing, killing, death, and having not-so-happy endings. Most zines and magazines do not publish stories with unhappy endings. WE DO, IT'S WHAT WE LIKE!
If you would like to submit to "THE DARKER WOODS", request the Writer's Guidelines by sending an e-mail request to DARKERWOOD.
Subj: Hi APoetGirl4
Date: 95-09-16 21:11:43 EST
From: Mlindholm
Posted on: America Online
Don't know why no one else replied to your post back on 9-7. Probably busy reloading or something. Anyway. What type of writing are you working on, and how is it going for you? Do you have a work in progress?
Also, a note to TJCricket and other young writers. Ray Bradbury, I believe, started writing at bout 13. Asimov was also an early starter, and I think (I may be wrong) Harlan Ellison. So you are in very good company. One thing always to keep in mind is to write what you know. And right now you know much more about being 15 or 17 or whatever in 1995 than any amount of research could ever convey to me. Put that into your writing, andyou are adding an ingredient that will be fresh and rare. This is also why you should keep a journal. So that in the future, when you are 30 or so and want to tap what it was to be 15, you will be able to go back and refresh your memories with personal recollections. One other thing you know better than anyone else is your own personal worlds, whether of fantasy or the back acreage you grew up on. Believe in your own magic to write it well. Best of luck to you. Megan
Subj: Re:fantasywriting or fantasybeli
Date: 95-09-17 14:53:26 EST
From: Paradys1
Posted on: America Online
When I write, I don't usually pay attention to my *word prose* at first. I am a pretty talented writer (or so I have been told) and writing comes very easily. So my first draft may have some prose errors. What I write at first is usually thought up at first, the *dream* you might say. After I have done that, then I go back and correct the body of work so that it makes sense and so the words captivate the reader. That's what I meant before and I'm sorry if someone misinterpereted me. Dreaming is just the beginning of the creative process. I feel that all really good works of fiction start out that way. If you just sit down and say, "I'm going to write a story. And it's going to be about this, this, and this. And here is how it will be structured, and blah, blah, blah." It just isn't going to work because you have no inspiration for it. You have to be struck by the idea first, and that idea is a form of dream. Now I just don't sit around and daydream all day and think that it's all good story material, but if I work at it, it could be. As far as this whole beliving topic goes, I belive in certain things which I cannot prove exist and I don't care. My work ain't fluffy.
Kira
P.S. I wrote that post from APoetGirl4 because I forgot that I was using her computer! The type of writing I do is mostly Sci-Fi/Fantasy and poetry. If you want to read some of my stuff just post it here and I'll e-mail you.
Subj: Re:fantasywriting or fantasybeli
Date: 95-09-17 23:23:16 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
I too initially write my idea out first and then go over my prose later. Or should I say, I try to not pay too much attention to my prose at first. After five years of college majoring in english with a cretive writing emphasis (I finally received my degree in August), I've found it's difficult to boot the editor off of my shoulder.
My stories do not really come to me as dreams, but rather as ideas that flourish on their own. My best ideas come to me while I'm driving or when I am at work. While this may seem strange, I've come up with some nifty plots during these times.
Paradys1--- I'd love to take a look at some of your work. You can e-mail it to me anytime.
Zahrima
Subj: Structure
Date: 95-09-18 21:29:47 EST
From: TJ Cricket
Posted on: America Online
Oh boy, do I hate structure. As much as I love English I hate it when teachers try to force your writing. 'Now, you start out with the topic sentence and everyting you write in the paragraph should relate back to that. Paragraphs are four to five sentences long. Use quotes! Use quotes!' Ahem, sorry. I just finished writing a compostion for English class on the Scarlet Letter. It's just so hard for me to show my talent as a writer when it is so structured like that. I wish in English classes we would be able to do more *free-form* and *Fiction* writing.
Now I'm side-tracking a bit, but I used to take ballet and that has to do a lot with structure, right? You have to learn how to do all the different moves before you can dance. The thing was, I didn't care much for doing the choreography the teacher made us do. I could dance so much better when I was at home, doing my own, *free-form* thing.
I just feel that I express my self so much better when I'm on my own without instruction. I'm not saying that my writing is out there, with fragments and combinations of words that make no sense. First, you learn the different moves, then you can dance all you want, how you want. :o) Is that a cool analogy or what?
About leaving my writing in the drawer, no way! I'm just saying that while I am writing I don't have a thought of publishing. That comes later.
TJ Cricket
Subj: Re:Structure
Date: 95-09-18 22:15:45 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
TJ,
I understand where you're coming from! When I was in high school, I remember the benign writing structure imposed on us. First paragraph introduction, next three compose the body, and the last is the conclusion. BLAH! But you'd be amazed how different my college creative writing classes were. They were set up like workshops. You'd write a story and the people in class would give you a critique based on plot, content, characterization, rising action, and so on. Of course they'd pick on you if your sentence structure made absolutely no sense, but hey, you want the reader to understand, right?
Actually, English is such a rich language, that if it's used right, a fragment sentence isn't going to matter all that much. It may even evoke strong emotions in the reader if placed in *that* perfect spot. And I'll tell you, no textbook can tell you where *that* spot is. I guess my point is, not all english classes impose a stucture like that encountered in highschool and some college english classes. I highly recommend workshops to anyone who feels the need for motivation or for those who want some honest criticism regarding their writing. I'd say my workshop classes not only helped me to improve my writing, but they motivated me to keep writing as well.
Zahrima
Subj: Re:Structure
Date: 95-09-19 15:22:53 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
Oh TJ, I know how you feel! I hate writing structured pieces. It annoys me so much! I'm taking a college level english class right now and all my teacher can talk about is structure and other crap and I hate quotes and arrggghhhh! Sorry, got in a little tizzy there. But isn't it the worst when you have to write a structured poem? That goes against the entire creative process! I mean, if you're going to write a poem with a particular rhyme sceme then it has to come out that way. I have only written 2 poems that were good that came out of a class assingnment. I just loathe it when they tell you to put in specific things like metaphors and stuff. AAAAAHHHHHH!
You guys had to read The Scarlet Letter? I pity you. Well, actually the book wasn't that bad, just full of a lot of symbolism and stuff. Teachers love that. Just promise me you won't go see the movie.
Kira
Subj: Re:Structure
Date: 95-09-20 00:32:40 EST
From: Jarkman
Posted on: America Online
Sorry, but I can't help but disagree with the last several posts. Creativity should be allowed to grow and flourish, yes, but to mistake unstructured amorphism with freedom is a fallacy. All first drafts, to one extent or another, are loose and flowing, but there still needs to a basic underpining, even if unconscious, to hold it all together.
I'm not talking "Topic sentence, paragraphs with X sentences," etc., because that is more grammar than composition. However, you'd be surprised at just how important those things become later on when you are fighting to put a piece together, to make sense of it not only in revision, but even when trying to put it on the page. It has to become almost second nature (no, not "almost") if you want to convey anything more complicated than a shopping list.
I've read, critiqued, and edited a fair amount of material, and you can tell which writers know how to construct a sentence, paragraph, and story, and those who don't. The ones who do, you want to read (assuming the story is good); the ones who don't, you want to abandon by paragraph number 3, no matter how riveting the plot, because it's too damn much work (and sometimes just too painful) to bother continuing. Even if you understand what is going on in the latter cases (and you often do), the sheer frustration factor is enough to drive you away.
Stick with it, no matter how painful, because in the end it will pay off. While free form creativity is nice, if not tamed just a bit, it is often not taken seriously (and that, btw, is a poorly formed sentence, but I'm too tired to fix it).
Jm
Subj: Re:Structure
Date: 95-09-20 00:41:08 EST
From: Mlindholm
Posted on: America Online
I would agree that structure makes a nice trellis for creativity. I think that's why you see a lot of very good writers with backgrounds in journalism. One of the most frustrating experiences I've had is to work with a workshop or critique session and find a writer who creates beautiful prose that tantalizingly almost tells a story. It's even worse when the writer in question doesn't realize his or her readers have no idea what is going on in the story. Structure is essential, like the canvas under a painting.
Subj: Re:Structure
Date: 95-09-20 05:47:20 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
Of course I agree that structure is important. You're right, it's hard to read something that is just free-flowing all over the place (kinda why I dislike stream-of-conciousness<spelled wrong> pieces). But what I was really talking about was totally rigid writing. No creativity involved just everything in order. There are many books that don't start at the beginning and just fill in things on the way (in a structured manner, of course) which is ok if you're writing fiction. Not every piece has to go along with all the guidelines in the English book. But, of course, you do want to watch out for grammer and tense and commas and stuff or else it gets hard to read. I am not very good at commas and other grammer thingys so I give my work to others to proofread. That helps and it doesn't take away from the creativity. But if you feel that a certain something should go into your story and it goes against EVERY law in grammer, put it in anyway (if it works).
Kira
Subj: Anthology
Date: 95-09-20 10:41:52 EST
From: Aerae
Posted on: America Online
Several months ago a notice was posted on this board about a fantasy anthology. There are a few of us who are trying to get an anthology going. If anyone is interested or has any questions about it please e-mail Aerae for more information. I hope to hear from some of you soon.
Aerae
Subj: Creativity & structure
Date: 95-09-20 16:51:19 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Reading a formless story is a bit like traveling a highway without road signs crossing landscape which is constantly shifting; now it's desert, now it's green valley. You cannot begin to guess where you are or where you're going, however interesting the fleeting views may be.
It's a matter of goals. If you truly wish to tell a tale which others will understand, then do not be shocked if a highly personal, obscurely written piece in which it is impossible to tell who is speaking, thinking or telepathically communicating resonates *only* with you. If your goal is to write something only you will comprehend, then anything does go (But I challenge you to put aside such prose and promise to go back and read it in 5 years. You probably won't understand it, either.).
Creativity is not synonymous with formlessness. There are plenty of talented writers capable of originality and structure.
Subj: Stop the madness!!!!!
Date: 95-09-20 16:57:48 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
Ok, let's take a breather here and examine how this whole structure disscussion got started. TJ commented on how annoying it is to have to write essays and crap in the way english teachers wanted. She did not say that structure is bad nor did anyone say that we write totally unstructured pieces that only we understand. TJ, Zarhima and I were just merely stating our dislike for writing a certain way. We didn't say it was bad and we certainly didn't say that we didn't use any structure in our writing. There, now doesn't everyone feel better?
Subj: good news
Date: 95-09-20 18:30:11 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
After 3 nights of the 12 1/2 hour overnight shift, I needed some good news. (The sight of the horned moon and Sirius rising over an acre of 55 gallon drums in the middle of the night is incomparable.)
Crawling out the door this evening to cut the grass, I found an acceptance from *Moonletters* for my story "On Neutral Ground". I don't know which issue it will appear in.
Subj: Agent (of course!)
Date: 95-09-20 20:13:38 EST
From: PrisAudio
Posted on: America Online
I'm trying to market my novels. I've sold fiction, nonfiction, poetry, and technical (read, textbooks) but I can't market AND write. I have been scr**ed by people masquerading as publishers both online and off, and was wondering if anybody can recommend a decent agent. He**s Be**s, I'd even send someone a precis or chapter of one of the novels, and actually ACCEPT the critique given.
Thanks, Beth
Subj: Re:Structure
Date: 95-09-20 20:17:03 EST
From: TJ Cricket
Posted on: America Online
I guess no one got my analogy on dancing. I guess you'd have to know what it is like....
I'm not trying to diminish the importance of structure. What is a substance without structure? A limp, mess of stuff that runs through your fingers when you try to hold it, that's what. But there are animals that don't have any bones, and liquid doesn't really have a structure, does it? Anyway, what's important to remember is that the stuff that covers the formation of something is just as important as the formation itself.
TJ Cricket
-Am I going off on a tangent again? Sorry if this made no sense!
-Paradys- I love symbolism! I loved the Scarlet Letter too!
Subj: Re:Structure
Date: 95-09-21 20:13:34 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
So, TJ, you liked the scarlet letter huh? Well, it was a pretty good book. Just please, PLEASE don't go see the movie!!! I saw the script, PU!!!!!!! It was really bad, they changed almost everything. I did get your dancing analogy. But I have the perfect example for what we have both been trying to say about structure. Today, we had to write a 40-min essay in class and the teacher reamed on everyone about stucture and orginization and crap. That's what I can't stand, no free-form writing just structure, structure, structure! Oh well, I can't complain, I got a perfect score.
Kira
Subj: Structure....
Date: 95-09-23 00:57:00 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
I didn't mean that structure within a story is not important. I was saying that learned composition structure (i.e. paragraph 1, 2, 3 and so on) does not hold true to fiction writing. I do believe that education in grammer and structure are an important and essential foundation for any writer. I was merely saying I sympathize with TJ's gripe about how the imposed, benign structure of the composition form we all learned in our school days can hinder creativity. It's hard to break away that form after having been spoon fed it for many years.
Subj: Re:good news
Date: 95-09-23 01:02:18 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
That's great, Katryn. As for me, another rejection slip from MZB. That's okay though. It's only postage and there are other fish in the sea. At least I still have my day job, for now. :)
Subj: Re:good news
Date: 95-09-23 07:28:36 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
I'm still thinking about taking one of my stories with a hetero couple and making them both lesbians or gays and see if MZB will buy such. Has anyone tried this?
Subj: Hi everyone
Date: 95-09-23 22:04:16 EST
From: Sulperia
Posted on: America Online
I have been reading the postings on this board for a few weeks.
Things were getting pretty tense there for awhile, so I waited to post.
Not that I do not like a good aurgument, but I did not wish to get my head in the line of fire.
Anyway, I just want to introduce myself. I'm 23 and as yet unpublished.
Subj: Re:Hi everyone
Date: 95-09-23 23:15:28 EST
From: StarWolf31
Posted on: America Online
Hi Sulperia and everyone else. I'm new to these boards, but they seem interesting. I just got my first rejection notice (from WaRP Graphics), but I'm actually proud of it. It was the first manuscript I had ever submitted anywhere. Anyhow, aside from ElfQuest, I enjoy writing a blend of sci-fi and fantasy (please don't yell at me, purists; I can't help myself). My biggest problem is writing myself, or rather my characters, into corners. Any suggestions on how to avoid this?
Subj: Rejection Notices can be fun!
Date: 95-09-24 04:29:13 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Hello Sulperia! Hello StarWolf!
Katryn--- I think that would be an interesting test for MZB. Right now, I'm trying to see how many stories of mine she'll reject before telling me off. Just kidding :)
StarWolf--- I'm proud of my first rejection notices too. Especially the personal notes from editors. Why? I know it sounds crazy, but they give me motivation to keep sending my stuff out. I guess it's a writer's ego thing for me. As for putting characters in corners, this can be good because then the character has to figure out a way to come out fighting. If the character has no way out, (s)he simply dies. Thing is, there is always a way out, but the character will have to work for it. Which in turn creates tension for the climax. :)
Subj: Ask a stupid question.....
Date: 95-09-24 08:56:04 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
At the risk of sounding ignorant, what is MZB? And where do I sent a manuscript if I want to submitt one to (her?)?
Subj: MZB & enigmatic rejections
Date: 95-09-24 12:39:58 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
MZB is legendary for her snotty, off the wall and sometimes senseless rejection comments. One can puzzle over them and wonder if she really is writing about the same story. I sent her one with elements of genocide, murder, prejudice, kidnapping...not pleasant goings-on. She sent me a note about the story concerning "nice things happening to nice people". It's almost whimsical getting these things back; some of the stuff she prints is predictable, even childish. Too bad it costs so much to mail manuscripts or it might be fun to collect enigmatic rejections from her. (I've placed things she has rejected, by the way.) Zahrima shared her MZB wisdom-filled rejection with me and I had to puzzle over it and do some digging in my library to figure it out. You've seen my stuff Paradys; what do you think if I turned the hetero pair into lesbians?
Subj: Re:MZB & enigmatic rejections
Date: 95-09-24 18:39:15 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
Hmmmmm........ I don't know Katryn. You might try writing about a lesbian couple, I think you are a good enough writer to do so. I just feel that you have to experience certain emotions and situations before you can really write about them. But there have been plenty of writers who have written about things and emotions that they could not have possibly experienced themselves and did a good job. I say go for it, it might be fun. I think I might want to send MZB my story, jsut to see what she says about it. What's her address?
Kira
Subj: New on AOL
Date: 95-09-24 21:04:00 EST
From: Dneice6605
Posted on: America Online
Hello everyone. I just wanted to introduce myself to say hi, howdy, and what's up from Texas. I've been a budding writer now for ... oh, since I've been old enough to know what a pencil is and I still haven't been able to get through a story to the finish. (Most of the time I can't get past the the first two Roman numerals of an outline. Pretty sad, huh?) Anybody have the same problem?
Denise
P.S. I'd love to get e-mail from anyone. My mailbox has been woefully empty for the last two weeks. :(
Subj: Re:Hi everyone
Date: 95-09-24 22:48:31 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Aw, Sulperia, go ahead, take sides, define yourself. If you think this traffic was fun, you should see the private posts, especially the ones I got from Wolfie where he maintains that people should lie online and misrepresent themselves to puff up their self-esteem to the pooint where they would transform into the writers they wished to be!!!! Amazing!!!
Subj: MZB
Date: 95-09-24 23:45:29 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Paradys: MZB's address is -- Mrs. Marion Zimmer Bradley, Editor
Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy Magazine
PO Box 249
Berkeley, CA 94701
If you do send your stuff and she sends you a rejection note, please share it with us. I've recieved two and I find it interesting to see what ahe has to say about people's work. You know Katryn, I'm still trying to figure out that "A lot of nice things happen...." statement from MZB. I wonder what she was thinking. I think a lot of the stuff she buys is pretty boring myself. But I'm one who prefers high adventure.
Sulperia, feel free to jump in at any time. :)
Subj: Re:New on AOL
Date: 95-09-24 23:50:21 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Denise,
I used to have that problem with my stories. My advice is- Don't use outlines and write the story from start to finish in one sitting. It may only take up one page, but in my opinion, it's easier to add to a story rather than delete from it. I find that if I don't use the above method, the story usually sits in my computer half finished for a longer period of time. But if I have the main ideas, characters, and plot of the story mapped out in a draft I have no problem going through it and adding to it until it's finished.
Good Luck!
Zahrima
Subj: Re:MZB
Date: 95-09-25 01:06:55 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Yes, let's all share our MZB rejections. The lighter side of writing fantasy...maybe we should all send her stories involving lesbians, since that was just about all she was writing for a while...
Subj: Re:MZB
Date: 95-09-25 01:07:52 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Anyone who wants to see the story about "nice things happening to nice people", e-mail me privately. Paradys, you've already seen it--"Long Lake".
Subj: Finishing things
Date: 95-09-25 13:02:30 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I wrote for years without finishing anything...(Even half of a Start Trek novel, or should I admit that?) Frankly, for me, it became a matter of discipline, but not the discipline of forcing myself to finish something that won't finish.
I can't always finish a story in one sitting, as much as I like to...Sometimes they just won't work. But, I have zillions of files on my computer, some of them with only a line or a scene or a character description. The discipline is in always saving everything, every little half thought. Alot of my stories are finished by cobbling these little pieces together -- Your mind connects things in weird ways sometimes.
Also, if I'm trying to finish something and it's just not going, I read through all my old files...Either something will work or I'll have a thought about one of the others and can finish it.
It just doesn't pay, at least for me, to sit and stare at something that's not coming. With everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) saved, I may not finish a particular story very quickly (what I think is one of my best took several months), but I finish SOMETHING on a fairly regular basis. Also, quite often, what I thought was two or three stories turns out to be one...Which can be discouraging until you discover how many ideas you really have!
Of course, this works terrific for short stories -- The encouragement of finishing one quite often leads me on to others, but now that I've started my first novel, I'm having problems...Seems like I'll NEVER finish, though I've set myself a deadline for Chapter One. Unfortunately, my conception keeps changing as I go, which makes it difficult to finish even one chapter. I tend to edit a little to much in the beginning, I guess. Advice?
MaryAnne
Subj: Re: Zahrima
Date: 95-09-25 13:37:05 EST
From: Dneice6605
Posted on: America Online
Thanks for the advice!
I had read in one of those "How to write fiction" books that it's best if you finish one story before going on to the next. I find this tidbit a little difficult. Is it better to switch between stories or should you just write down an idea for one and get to it later when you've finished the current one? Does anyone have multiple story lines going at the same time?
Subj: The unfinished
Date: 95-09-25 16:08:40 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
Oh goodess, I have about 20,000,000 half-stories lying around here. Including a Star Trek novel that was the greatest one ever but I really didn't want to write it unless I got Kevin Ryan to acknowledge me (which he didn't). But I figure that if they are going to get written they will write themselves. What I mean by that is this: When I write, things pretty much write themselves. It just kinda flows. Of course, I have to revise and polish it later, but never any MAJOR overhauls. When I have to actually struggle to write, it sually turns out really bad and no matter how much I do to it I'm never happy. So I just let the story flow and if it don't, I don't waste my time.
Long Lake?!?!!! She said THAT about LONG LAKE? I don't know if I want to submit something to her now, not if she's going to make comments like that. Whoa. Can you say CLUELESS? I knew you could.
Subj: Multiple Stories
Date: 95-09-25 19:54:45 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
Denise,
I always have more than one story going on at the same time. If I get stuck on one, I move to another. It seems to work for me. One of my latest ones *How I Crashed the Government's Mainframe*, sat in my computer for over six months and before that it was scribbled on notebook paper for four months. I think it just depends on how many stories you feel comfortable working on at any one time.
Subj: Re:Finishing things
Date: 95-09-25 19:58:53 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
I've tried to give myself deadlines on the chapters for my novel. But it doesn't work for me. Sometimes, when I get stuck or find myself editing too much, I'll put it away and work on something else for awhile until I'm ready to go on. As a matter of fact, I'm taking a break from chapter 5 right now. When I take breaks I often work on one of my short stories. When I go back, my mind is usually cleared and refreshed.
Subj: Re:MZB
Date: 95-09-25 20:00:53 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
I think that's a good idea! I wonder what she'd do if we all did send lesbian stories. I think I'll start working on one.....
Subj: Re:MZB
Date: 95-09-25 20:28:46 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Yes, anyone writing about males, change them to wimmen or womyn or whatever the PC term is and ship those manuscripts off to California!
Subj: doing it
Date: 95-09-25 21:05:58 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
*Finishing something* seems to be a critical step. Even finishing a story that doesn't quite work seems to be better than just moving on to something else. Based on personal experience, I'd suggest keeping all the fragments --you never know when they might come in handy, and if you've got them saved electronically, it's easy to resurrect them-- and to finish *something*, even if it's short. Sometimes you simply have to force yourself to sit down and write, even if you don't feel like it.
I don't like to read short stories and I hate writing them. But doing the second one was a lot easier than the first; the most recent one took only two drafts.
I have multiple story-hatchings going on all the time. Somewhere I came across the thought that the way to have a few *good* ideas was to have a *lot* of ideas.
Have somebody else read your stuff, someone who will give you honest, *constructive* comments. And then start sending stories out. Get a subscription to Scavenger's Newsletter or other market source. Risk some rejections. Don't send anything to MZB at first unless you enjoy riddles. Don't just think about it, do it all. No story or book is ever accepted sitting there on disk--they won't come looking for you.
Subj: All in good time
Date: 95-09-25 21:17:13 EST
From: Sulperia
Posted on: America Online
KatrynK:
Slowly(or not) but surely, I will define myself. What I meant was that I did not want to get involved in someone else's war, especially since it was obvious that there was more going on than what was being written on the message board.
Subj: Just a few thoughts
Date: 95-09-25 21:26:26 EST
From: Sulperia
Posted on: America Online
I sometimes start a story in the middle and work my way to the end before I even start on the beginning. It may sound a bit strange, but sometimes it works when you are trying to finish a story.
Subj: Keeping the pieces
Date: 95-09-25 22:18:55 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
I agree that you should always keep every piece you write, even if it's crap. To get yourself writing try this method, which has proved itself helpful to me many times:
Pick a subject, anything. Have a friend or relative pick one for you if you can't think of anyhting. Say for example, a forest scene. Your job, as a writer, would then be to create the forest, it's inhabitants and so on in ten minutes or more. If you can't write for more than ten minutes, stop and try again another day. This is a lot of fun when you have a group or another person writing with you because then you can read one another your descriptions/scenes of the same topic afterward. Then you keep these little pieces. I've gotten some great material and ideas from mine.
Subj: more on MZB and multiple stories
Date: 95-09-26 23:53:05 EST
From: Jarkman
Posted on: America Online
Well, I have to say that I haven't found any of MZB's rejections cryptic or clueless. Either the story wasn't right for her mag (too dark, and it was a dark story), or she had just purchased something similar, and so on. I didn't puzzle or read into them: I just filed the rejections away and moved to the next market on my list for that particular story. Usually, unless I get detailed comments, or a marked up MS back, I gloss the letter and set it aside. As for trying her magazine with your first MS...I made my first professional sale to MZB back in '91.
As for multiple story lines...this can be good or bad, depending on your writing style and/or who you talk to. Myself, I tend to try and finish one short story before moving onto the next simply to force myself to get it done. Sometimes I'll go back and revise a finished story while working on another if I'm stuck, since it helps get the juices flowing again, but I don't jump back and forth between two short works in progress. If I do stop on a story, it is to set it aside for a good length of time because I have realized it is still too unformed to be done properly right then. (A good length of time usually being 6 months to a year or more.)
However, some writers can't work any other way than by juggling several stories at once. Also, I 've been told that taking a break during a novel to punch out a short story sometimes helps you get through the rough spots, if for no other reason than by achieving a sense of completion. Since I'm not working on a novel at the moment, I haven't had chance to put that one to the test yet.
Subj: Re:The Trials of Fallon
Date: 95-09-27 00:56:24 EST
From: Wsu75
Posted on: America Online
You have just entered the real world of an existentialist...enjoy. You may find that you have found a story that will sell!
Subj: Re:more on MZB
Date: 95-09-28 15:59:44 EST
From: EKathy
Posted on: America Online
I must admit I find the Comments on MZB rejections great reading
(I framed the one she sent me 'cause it was nice)
Personally I found her guidelines very entertaining and funny
(so - I'm a little strange)
I wrote a story based on them and sent it in hoping to get a nasty rejection - hey - everyone else has on why not me ? still waiting -
I'll prob get a form letter - sigh.
Subj: mzb
Date: 95-09-28 20:18:57 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Do keep sending her stories, and you, too, will have something bizarro! The straightforward rejections appear to be rather unusual.
Subj: Re:Hello again
Date: 95-09-28 22:58:50 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Well, I am finally back home!
I managed to spend two weeks traveling where I was sent to LA on business. LA is an interesting place, though much of what I managed to see is the nightlife. The only thing that really bothered me was that the whole time I was there, I never was able to see the stars or the moon. This may sound somewhat existential, but the fact is that there is a haze that covers everything!
I have finally "completed" the novel I have been working on for three years. It was truly a great thing, until I realized how much revision and spell checking I have yet to do. (Yes, Karen, I do spell check very carefully when i am not spending money online).
I am sure you will all agree that whatever the merits of a work, completing it is one of the greatest feelings of the whole process!
I wish I had a war story or two about posings to magazines, or MZB or any actual author. The fact is, I have never really felt good about short stories, they always leave me feeling as though I have not completed what I set out to do.
Don't believe all the things that KatrynK says about me. I fear she is probably attacking me here out of some form of pettiness simply because I have stopped ansering her E-Mail. Karen, I feel we were getting nowhere with it! You cnstantly misconstrued much of what I said!
For any of you who are interested, the most worthwhile (at least to me) part of our debate was over a writer's style. I tend to write poetically, and Karen more sharply to the point.
What styles do those of you on the board here prefer?
I hope that you will all forgive my distance from the board, but i have very little free time right now.
Nevertheless, for any of you who do not know me, WELCOME TO THE BOARD. I hope you enjoy your time here!
-Wolf
Subj: I'm no liar
Date: 95-09-29 09:32:33 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
I'm no liar, though Wolfie says as much. Anyone who cares to read the entire exchange of e-mail between Wolfie and myself, just ask, and I'll forward it all. You can judge for yourself. Did Wolfie make such an open offer? No. He just made an accusation, without substance.
Subj: Re: matriarchies
Date: 95-09-29 12:54:10 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Have you read *The Great Cosmic Mother: Rediscovering the Religion of the Earth* by Monica Sjoo and Barbara Mor?
Great, thick book, with *lots* of info (starting from the evolution of the human species through to the women's struggles of the late 20th century), but also a very fast read.
It "converted" my father--he was never very happy with our culture and male God, but never knew there was an alternative... now he does :-).
In this book, they use the term "matrifocal" instead of "matriarchal"...
Subj: Comments anyone?
Date: 95-09-29 14:39:56 EST
From: Dneice6605
Posted on: America Online
I recently finished a short story and would like comments. Check out "No title yet" file in library. Suggestions for a title would be appreciated! :)
P.S. I just uploaded the file today so it may be a little while before it's posted. Thanks.
Subj: Re:Comments
Date: 95-09-29 17:04:56 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
I am not callling you a liar Karen, only misguided.
I did not offer to forward any of your E-mail because I felt that that was a breach of your personal confidence. Nevertheless, if you have no problem with it, I would happily forward any of your attacks on the members of this board to any of them. Is that really what you want?
Distractions aside...
Has anyone read any of Jack chalker's books? I find him a very talented author with some very humorous and interesting ideas. such as a parallel world where everything is regimented into ruloes for the denizens. Such as...all barbarian warriors, do they have the fortune to find a sword, must name it...etc...
Subj: Publishing
Date: 95-09-29 17:12:21 EST
From: TRice77208
Posted on: America Online
I have recently finished a book in the midieaval genre. It is not exactly "Sword and Sorcery" as it is more realistic and based upon a parallell Midieaval earth. I have already copyrighted it but don't know who to send it to Perhaps Berkley Books since they published a lot of Michael Moorcock's work. If anyone has any advice, please E-mail me.
Thanks...
Subj: Re:Do You Believe in Magic?
Date: 95-09-29 23:20:40 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Yes, I do--most definitely!
But then again, I have a different understanding of magic than that which appears in most S&S tales... I do not believe that a wave of a wand, or a muttered spell can conjure dragons out of thin air, or can bring the dead back to life, or anything like that... I believe that W. B. Yeats (who was a Theosophist <i.e. magician> for much of his adult life) explained it well when he listed the 3 main doctrines of magic:
1) that "the borders of our minds [and memories] are ever shifting"
2) That our individual minds and memories are linked to the mind and memory of nature itself (see the writings of Carl Jung and James Lovelock for more on the ideas of both"collective unconscience" and the idea that nature has a mind).
3) that this "Great Mind" and "Great Memory" can be evoked by symbols.
Yeats wrote this in an essay entitled "Magic" in *Ideas of Good and Evil", first published in 1903, btw.
Subj: Re: Magic
Date: 95-09-29 23:31:53 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
As for magic and Quantum, I am currently working on a novel where the metaphor/explaination of magic centers around the superstring theory... that it is the vibrations of the "strings" that keep everything connected, and that it is the flow of magic (like the flow of electicty, or even water) that keeps the strings vibrating.
The problems start when magic stops flowing...
Oh, and speaking of 'strings', has anyone here read *Way of Wyrd* by Brian Bates, its a novel/Masters Dissertation on Anglo-Saxon Shamanism
at the beginnig of the Christian era in Britian... I highly recomend it...
Subj: Lies, lies, lies
Date: 95-09-30 00:04:41 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
I stand behind my statement that Wolfie thinks it's a good idea for people to pose as something that they are perhaps not. These are unaltered quotes:
You must understand that the young are endeavoring to satisfy an internal
need for accomplishment within themselves. The easiest way to accomplish
this feat is to reflect what other's feel about them back upon themselves. "
Behind this mask that is a cyber environment, we can pretend to be great,
accomplished writers when a person is only a fledgling. In the same truth,
the world's most famous novellist could be pretending to be a child! The
beauty of the internet is not trying to establish who a person is, but to
build a picture in your mind's eye relating to who they say they are.
I built this board to relate to fellow writers of Fantasy in an environment
that is based upon a veiled equality. That is the beauty of this place."
Why an accomplished professional would pose as a child is not explained; it boggles the imagination that anyone would do that. Don't miss the condescending tone and attitude towards the "young", which is astonishing since Wolfie himself is only 22. I have more respect than he does for the people here, no matter what age they are. I assume that they are interested in becoming the best possible writers they can be, not in posing as wonderful writers.
Subj: learn to read for comprehension
Date: 95-09-30 00:42:14 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Wolfie, learn to read carefully and *please* start proofreading your own material. Stop embarrassing yourself making glaring errors in comprehension. Try to learn to write clear, unambiguous prose which doesn't require personal knowledge of your intentions to be understood. And figure out what you believe so you won't have to keep explaining yourself (over and over and over...) Do you think you're really that fascinating that people want to hear you having to go on and on about points you could not elucidate on the first try?
And don't tell lies about other people when you know the truth.
Subj: Re:I'm no liar
Date: 95-09-30 01:24:31 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
I read the e-mail exchanges between Katryn and Wolf. Wolf, I think you may be being a bit too harsh on Katryn here. She was only telling you the truth about what she believed. You have to remember, some people have more life experience from which to draw. Those of us who haven't had much in the way of that experience can learn from others and not lie about our lack of it. It will come in its own time. Katryn, in my opinion, has told no lies to anyone by any means.
As far as style of writing goes.... I prefer straight forward writing as opposed to poetic. I'm not saying that prose cannot be poetic, however, it should be void of the vague metaphor used in some poetry. That, of course, is my personal preference.
:) Zahrima
Subj: Catfight maybe?
Date: 95-09-30 11:32:18 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
Ok, please don't start this stuff again, were still recovering form the last altercation. (Radient's hair is still lying in the corner and there's blood on the wall). I didn't get what Katryn got out of those quotes but I haven't read all the eMail. Personally, she has never been more than straightforward with me and so I really can't side with that. But this is not my fight so I'll just stand here in the corner holding the weapons.
As far as my writing style.....hmmmmm. Well, I write a lot of poetry so I do tend to lean toward that in my writing. What I try to do most is write descriptively which requires a few of the elements of poetry. It allows the reader to make a better mental picture. My ultimate goal is to be able to write a whole short without any dialouge. I want to make all my writing as descriptive as I can so I won't need it. In my last story, I had very little dialouge and only added more to make the beginning more exiteing.
Subj: Catfight, all right
Date: 95-09-30 13:30:32 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
Frankly, I don't care who is right or wrong. I, too, am on this board to share in a community of writers and to meet people with similar interests who can offer both support and advice. Though it shouldn't matter, it seems to have become important, so I will say I am 27 and an experienced writer struggling to make the leap into the published world. I do not consider myself a child, nor will I shun good advice or constructive criticism from ANY source -- including some very good writers I know who are much younger than I am.
In all honesty, judging by what is on the board, Wolf, right or wrong, has been much calmer in his responses. He has made by far the most adult decision by taking what has essentially become a private argument off the board. Thank you for that; I have neither the time nor the money to waste on-line hours on childish spats.
But, hey, guys, if you insist on continuing this unseemly display in public, please, post the damn things -- so we can make a FAIR and ACCURATE judgement about what is going on, and if that's not possible (it seems to be beyond that point), at least enjoy the vicarious thrills of eavesdropping.
I for one am signing off to work on getting published.
And just for the record, there should be no conflict between "clear" and "poetic" prose. A good poetic metaphor is never vague.
MaryAnne
Subj: Re:Lies, lies, lies
Date: 95-09-30 23:36:58 EST
From: StarWolf31
Posted on: America Online
I'm a new writer and make no apologies for it. I'm just getting started on the publishing merry-go-round and refuse to build myself up into something I'm not just because this is an anonymous community. My ego is not so fragile that I would have to do that. If my writing is bad, I want to know. I want to know how I can improve. I want to write, write, write until I have something people enjoy reading because I've touched a nerve. "Never give up" is my motto. And that's my two-cents on the subject.
Subj: Forum fighting
Date: 95-10-01 00:06:18 EST
From: OC Adam M
Posted on: America Online
Welcome Chaos!!
Blow wind, crack your cheeks!!
Subj: Re:Lies, lies, lies
Date: 95-10-01 15:47:05 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Which means, StarWolf, that you will quite likely succeed, since you are interested in being a good writer than in telling people that you are a writer. Keep at it. Nothing succeeds like persistence.
Subj: Standing in the line of fire...
Date: 95-10-01 19:02:19 EST
From: TJ Cricket
Posted on: America Online
Keep your personal opinions of each other to yourselves, golly gee and gosh darn-it! I am guilty, yes I am, but from now on, no matter how much I dislike a certain person, I will not speak of it on the message boards no longer. eMail is your own business. I don't care what Wolf emailed whoever, because that will certainly never sway my high opinion of him. ;-) I've notice that a lot of conflict has been spewing around KatrynK, but I'll say no more of that. Just, well... There should be no bitter, caustic remarks flying around like that. It just angers other people to join in on the altercation.
Ehem... that aside, I just wanted to comment on different story lines. I find often that I'm writing part two in a series before I even finish part one. I have so many different scraps and pieces of stories lying around that its all confusion and pandemonium. But hey, that's half the fun of being a writer!
TJ Cricket
Subj: Re: Lies, et. al.
Date: 95-10-01 19:11:07 EST
From: Jkl2
Posted on: America Online
Will you folks please take your feud to e-mail?! We (or at least I) aren't interested (believe it or not).
Subj: Re:My answer
Date: 95-10-01 20:33:21 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
I would like to begin by stating that I did not call Karen a liar, that was her own misunderstanding. I called her misguided, and I must reiterate that this is the case. I agree with those on the board that this argument has no place here. It is antithesis to what I have been attempting to establish by creting this place for us all to come together. Therefore, I will not take the bait and grace Karen with a response ripe with those things that she said about those of you on the board. I feel that her contempt and anger comes out well in her own posts, i need not try and sully her reputation further.
When I spoke of the "young" i was referring to Radiant and my distress at the way Karen drove her from the board. I got involved on an E-mail basis because Radiant asked me to. I was asking Karen to have more respect for those younger and less experienced then herself. I wanted her to realize that Radiant was trying to establish herself here, not place herself on a pedestal. Now that I have placed this in context, I urge you to re read my words that Karen so gratiously posted.
(continued)
Subj: Re:answer2
Date: 95-10-01 21:01:50 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
(forgive me, my modem is not cooperating, and i have already lost two posts)
THIS ENDS HERE. I will not continue to argue with you Karen, nor feed your need for confrontation. This matter had no business outside of e-mail. If you must continue your childish bickering, i ask that you find a new board to do so. Forgive me for presuming to speak for those others on the board, but we do not want it here.
On a personal answer to Karen's constant attacks on my spelling and posts, I hope you will forgive me, but i am a TERRIBLE typist!
Zahrima & Paradys...
I was a poet before I was a writer. My poetry has always been the deepest part of me. As such, I have always endeavored to place my poetic self within my writing. When I spend a page describing the way a placid stream bubbles through a great field of burnt gold and red long set upon by fall. And when I link these emotional descriptions to the way the character feels about the land she walks upon, I am at that moment fulfilling my desire to project myself into my writing. I write poetry into my novels in order to personalize my writing to myself.
MaryAnne
Rest assured that this will not continue.
At 27 you are still young :) but in a good way. You, like many of us, have years ahead of you to fulfill your dreams. Years to write the stories that fulfill your dreams and imagination!
I thank you, and return that i have the highest respect for you and your opinions, as do i for the opinions of the rest of those on this board, including Karen, save for her bickering.
I think of you as a friend, and as a fellow writer, and happy for your support. Remember that this place was meant, at least by myself when I created it, as a place for writers to come together and support each other in this endeavor. It is a chance for us all to see that we are not alone here, it is just as hard for the other guy, or gal! :)
Cricket
I find that I have a drawer full of old stories and outlines that I have compiled from dreams. When I wake after a good one, i usually write it down furiously. Sometimes i feel like I am tied up in Fallon. As much as I love the world i have created, and as much as I enjoy the opportunity to write sequals, i sometimes wish that I could work on some of the other things at the same time. Sadly, i am unable to divert energies to two works simultaneously. I am nowhere near that gifted!
Keep hold of those unfinished works! Someday one of those old dreams may be the key to your greatest contribution to fantasy!
Thank you all for listening and being patient with a smiling wolf who felt he had to spend your time howling at the moon. (poetic metaphore.)
Keep the faith,
Wolf
Subj: Blandness
Date: 95-10-02 08:18:03 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Some believe that blandness is a virtue.
I don't. The nice thing about this is that I am the same person everyday, towards everybody, and I'm never mistaken for anyone else.
Subj: My Rant
Date: 95-10-02 19:46:12 EST
From: Lady Xull
Posted on: America Online
Before I say anything else, Sulperia and I are one and the same person
Since I spend equal amounts of time on-line as both Sulperia and Lady Xull, you will see postings under both screen names.
I do wish this fight would go back to the E-mail it seems to have originated from. There is nothing wrong with confrontation or defending one's position, but when it turns into degenerated mud-slinging, it ceases to have a place on public message boards.
Nothing is accomplished by finding weaknesses, manipulating semantics, and criticizing. It all ends in ill will towards one another. Before you know it some will start leaving and others will not want to say anything remotely controversial for fear of reprisal.
I think of myself as a fairly honest person and I resent being lied to, even if I never meet the person, but I will judge for myself and in my own time, who the liar is (if I so choose).
Lady Xull
Subj: It's sad....
Date: 95-10-02 22:29:28 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
You know what really makes me laugh? It's the fact that no one, save a select few people will even post on this board unless they want to complain about others arguing. And you're all whining about wasting your money? My solution : Skip the messages you don't want to read or post one of your own about what you'd like to discuss if you're really that upset. :) That's what I do. No, I don't particularily like arguments myself, however, I do like to have my say. I'm stubborn that way, please forgive me.
Meanwhile, getting back to business of writing, I just finished a short story I've been sitting on for four years! So, goes to show you it can be done. While it's not polished or perfected just yet, it will get there with some work and with the help from the people who have been kind enough to read and critique it for me. It's amazing how those old pieces have a way of coming through. Even after four years! :)
Subj: Re:Standing in the line of fire.
Date: 95-10-02 23:29:33 EST
From: StarWolf31
Posted on: America Online
Hey, Cricket, I've got so many notebooks full of story ideas lying around that my apartment looks like Office Depot exploded. <g>
Subj: Re:Fallon
Date: 95-10-03 11:37:13 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Zahrima.
I know exactly how you feel. Finishing a work is probably one of the best feelings...until you realize how much work remains to be done.
I now have hundreds of pages to spell check, rewrite, get opinions and critiques on, and then finally, when I feel it is good enough, hand it to a publisher.
One of the greatest trials of writing, is having to re-read and re-work your own story so many times, you become almost sick of it!
Nevertheless, onward and forward!
Wolf
Subj: What are we doing anyway?
Date: 95-10-03 12:44:30 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I just wanted to ask what exactly we (as a group) think this genre we're working in is? For example, I've been reading quite a bit of Tanith Lee, lately. Frankly, most of what she's written reminds me more of Edgar Allan Poe than any fantasy writer I know of. So why is she a fantasy writer, and he was (and still is) considered a horror writer?
What about Ursula K. LeGuin, who calls herself sometimes a fantasy writer and sometimes (more often) a science fiction writer?
Just trying to start a discussion -- Opinions?
MaryAnne
Subj: Re:Horses
Date: 95-10-03 12:53:22 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Kelly--
I, too, love horses... I ride for PT (have cerebral palsy--and it's the best therapy I've ever found)... Anyway, I agree that horses should be unique-- *all* creatures have personalities <sp?>. And if you're writing S & S, especially, a horse may be your protagonist's only companion for months (or rather, *pages* ;))... giving the horse a real character woould make the story a lot more interesting....
Subj: Re:What are we doing anyway?
Date: 95-10-03 13:11:44 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
MaryAnne--
Thanks for the question--I *love* a good question!
Here are *my* definitions, for what they're worth:
Fantasy: A story with mythological and dream-like symbols, structured around the plot of the hero myth (journey to an other-world, trials there, and return to this world--often with greater knowledge and/or power).
Magic realism: Same as fantasy, except the dream-like happenings occur on this plane--at the corner deli instead of "Wonderland"... and "realistic" details throughout (often, it seems only the protagonist notices strangeness).
Horror: Magic realism, (often with more emphasis on "realism") written to evoke fear in reader (viewer) and change his/her view of the world, rather than to change the protagonist.
Sci-Fi: "Fantasy" based on logical projections of technological and scientific knowledge rather than dream and myth--journeys to Mars rather than Wonderland.
So, how's my take on it? Anybody out there think I'm wildly off the mark?
Ann
Subj: Re:It's sad....
Date: 95-10-03 16:53:08 EST
From: Kelessia
Posted on: America Online
You go, girl!
Subj: Re:Fantasy
Date: 95-10-03 17:02:07 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Right on the mark, and better put then I could have, Ann!
For myself, Fantasy writing is an escape from our reality that has its roots mired deep in the old mythologies. My writings generally involve a character from our world that finds him or herself coping with a new and much different world. Call me predictable, but the character usually finds their way through a portal of some kind, though I have sent a character through a dream.
I have always been inspired by Coleridge, who once wrote:
"If a man could pass through paradise in a dream,
and have a flower presented to him as a pledge that his soul had really been there, and if he found that flower in his hand when he awoke--
Aye! And what then?"
-S.T. Coleridge
-Animae Poema
For myself, fantasy is dreadfully mysterious and romantic, almost gothic at times. It is a place where my heroes and heroin's can be heroic. It is a genre where our deepest dreams become reality and our worst nightmares the darkest enemys. through fantasy we can become the characters we truly desire to be, whether it is through the process of writing thew words, or by picking up a book and reading them.
I dream. And wake. And dream some more when I write. Somewhere within that dreaming, the words bring forth a story.
Kelly-
I have always had the deepest respect for the grace and beauty of horses. I think one of the most traumatic periods in my life was when i was younger and my companion of my childhood finally died. He was an award winning jumper, black and white spotted, and I think that he truly understood me.
Subj: Re:What are we doing anyway?
Date: 95-10-03 19:49:34 EST
From: Lady Xull
Posted on: America Online
I believe part of the answer lies in how fantasy evolved and when it became recognized as a separate genre.
As in anything, fantasy evolved into something beyond it's beginnings. It encompasses a wider range now. A story now could be classified as Dark Fantasy, where as, the same story 100 years ago would have been classified as horror.
Subj: Re:What are we doing anyway?
Date: 95-10-03 21:04:04 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
I guess everyone so far has defined fantasy as I. myself, would define it. It does encompass a wider spectrum now. So my question is, what type of fantasy does everyone here write? I personally write Sword and Sorcery type fantasy. :)
Subj: Re:What are we doing anyway?
Date: 95-10-03 22:47:51 EST
From: StarWolf31
Posted on: America Online
It seems that every fantasy book I've read has a medieval setting and theme. There are wizards, dragons, elves, etc. Can anyone explain why this particular time period is often used? I must admit that even I have used it. :)
Subj: Book Search
Date: 95-10-03 22:51:57 EST
From: StarWolf31
Posted on: America Online
I need some help finding a trilogy by Janet Morris. The books were titled: "Dream Dancer", "Cruiser Dreams", and "Earth Dreams." Sorry, but I can't remember the publisher. Does anyone know if these books are still in print?
Subj: FYI
Date: 95-10-03 23:48:23 EST
From: DARKERWOOD
Posted on: America Online
For everyone's information: The address for the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction (edited by Kristine Kathryn Rusch) has changed!!!!!
The new address is: PO Box 420
Lincoln City, OR 97367
Also, anyone interested in trying a new record keeping system for writers (my own creation) E-Mail me and I'll give you the information!
:) Zahrima
Subj: Re:Fantasy
Date: 95-10-04 09:27:24 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
My own person favorite would fall within a somewhat medieval era where there is a source of magic that is very low key, and all but legend. However, those that are willing to devote the time to learn are very powerful, respected and even feared.
Elves and unicorns and dragons, and the like are all but myths in Fallon (the fantasy world about which i write) Perhaps they do exist somewhere deep in the Mythral Tanestia- a deep forest, yet the population has not seen one in quite a time.
Generally, the people plod on through thier lives and generations may go by before a spell is uttered or a magical beast spotted. Those that practice magic do so in seclusion, waging thier own battles away from curious eyes.
In this way, i have created a very beautiful, but mundane world that overlays a world of incredible mystery and discovery.
I think that Fantasy tends to lean toward the Medieval and the sword and sorcery because it stems from our favorite mythology. Peoiple want to believe in magic and miracles. People want to believe that there is something other then a 9-5 job and Blockbuster at night. I think that this belief, that something special could happen just around the corner, keeps us sane. Besides, it was once written that there is no truer magic then the fulfillment of a dream...sounds good to me!
Wolfsrun ;)-
Subj: Fantasy pet peeves
Date: 95-10-04 14:45:03 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Wolfsrunn--
Yes, I think the fantasy genre (in all its forms) is very dream-like, and as basic to the human beast as dreaming itself (in the forward to *Dreams in a Minor Key: Stories of Magic Realism by Women* <out of print, now, unfortunately:(> the editor points out that MR has been around as long as literature itself, and that perhaps 'realistic', so-called "mainstream fiction" is the passing phase)... I think this is why I always feel cheated when at the end of the story the writer tells us "it was only a dream after all" <aarrghh!!>. It does nothing but take the story and its message out of the context of the characters' and readers' lives. Furthermore, I don't believe any dream is *only* a dream--if we listen to them, they can have a profound effect on our lives, as much or more as the events on the evening news. So which is more 'real'?
Another major pet peeve:
When the young hero of a children's fantasy (which is my chosen field) grows up and must leave the magic behind... This happens in nearly every story from *House at Pooh Corner* to *The Chronicals of Narnia*. Since magic is often a metaphor for personal power, it seems unfair (to me) to say to a kid (who has little or no power over her own life): "You can daydream about magic now, but soon you'll have to grow up and tow the line, doing what your boss/teacher tells you."
Instead, I try and have the hero/ine *learn* about magic through the story, and end it with his/her knowing they will carry that magic with them the rest of his/her life...
Anybody else out there have other peeves about these genres we work in?
Subj: Re:What are we doing anyway?
Date: 95-10-04 14:53:53 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Knights and kings and ivory towers do seem rather prevelant...
Perhaps it has to do with the origins of the genre: the Celtic/Cymric (Welsh) bards... Story-telling was as basic to these cultures as the military was to the ancient Romans (and it still is--Irish punt notes have pictures and quotes of writers instead of government officials). The bards created stories in honor of their patrons (kings and lords), and so all that stuff just came to be associated with the stories themselves--maybe <G>.
Subj: Re:Fantasy pet peeves
Date: 95-10-05 10:51:11 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Phary,
I think that C.S. Lewis (one of my favorite childhood authors next to LLoyd Alexander) was trying to establish a link between the magic that all is a great part of our childhood, and the departure from that childhood that is part of growing up.
I myself feel that a part of me never truly grew up. I admit that each day I strap myself into a business suit and make the long trip to the office. Yet that is only a temporary solution to a broader problem of survival in this world.
There is a child inside that still dreams of that magic portal, the stone table and the fierce Aslan. I think the point that Lewis wanted to make was that as childen, all of this is very possible. As adults, we are taught to see the improbability of those dreams.
As for myself, I dream them every time I write a story. Perhaps a fantasy writer is an exception to the rule.
Subj: Re:Fantasy pet peeves
Date: 95-10-05 14:38:50 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Perhaps you are right, and that C.S. Lewis (a favorite of mine, too, btw) was writing of the hopes and dreams of children, and not wishes or uses of power, per se. But the truth is we *are* "taught" that such things are impossible, and that is a *cultural* way of thinking that should (perhaps) become part of the past...
In contrast, there are the many Native American cultures which have what is called a Vision Quest. I am thinking specifically of the Lenape right now (who lived in this area for some 10,000 years before traveling to Ohio and Indiana). In their vision quest, the young man at the verge of adulthood is sent out on a physical and emotional trial in order that he may meet his Manitou (sort of like a guardian angel) who will give him power and protection for the rest of his life (girls weren't sent on the trials, but sometimes met their guides without one, when they were going through a tough time). And only those who had met their Manitoac could become full citizens in the community.
According to Lenape tradition, adolescence <sp?> is the "last chance" for this to occur, after that, you were cut off from the magical realms... So perhaps there is someting the literary tradition, and the ability to see and use magic is like language--if you don't get a chance to develop it by a certain age, you lose it. And our Western, Newtonian-based culture doesn't do much to encourage magical vision.
But, like I said before, maybe it's time for that to change... What with all the crises in society and environment, and the explosion of information coming at us from all directions (including quantum and post-quantum theories in science, which are pretty damn near magical theory when you think about it), maybe the ability to converse with angels is what we need right now...
Anyway, its a thought.
Subj: Re:What are we doing anyway?
Date: 95-10-05 20:04:11 EST
From: EKathy
Posted on: America Online
Swords are from the pre gunpowder era. I guess our choice of weapons limits our writing ? Magic is (suposedly) pre science era, That limits us also. When you slip magic into the now and present or the future what happens? all of a sudden you are writing SI FI - yes??
I have tried to do this and I haven't been able to find a market. I think the Market molds us a bit. Or am I wrong? Maybe the story just wasn't good enough.
I am very careful about who I tell this to, but I believe in the same things now that I did as a child - the world has many magic places. You just can't let people find out you are still a child when you pass the gateway into adulthood - and when you get gray hair - they look at you REAL strange and mumble about loosing ones mind. Can you wonder that most leave it behind ?
Kathy
Subj: Re:What are we doing anyway?
Date: 95-10-05 22:23:16 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Kathy--
I don't think you /have/ to set magic only in the pre-newtonian era for it to stay magic... I think of sci-fi as mostly /technological/ speculation, not the psychic/dream-like speculation of fantasy. And with the so-called "new age" (That term makes me gag) firmly upon us, I think more and more people are ready to accept that the neighbor next door can travel to other planes as readily as the magi of long ago (I've actually met a professional counselor who uses shamanic drumming techniques, with story telling, to heal his patients, and one of my oldest and dearest friends is a psychic healer)...
BTW, *Scholastic Books* has a new YA fantasy novel out (in hardcover) called *Princess Nevermore* about a princess who travels from the realm of magic into late 20th century suburbia (interesting switch, IMO)... And Bruce Coville who writes both Sci-Fi and fantasy has set his *Magic Shop* series in modern times.
And there was another book (forget the author and publisher <ack!>) called *A Nameless Tale* about a group of druids in Wales who used magic to help defeat Hitler in WW2...(that was loosely based on history) My only gripe with that one is that the writer included a unicorn in the story simply because it was a fantasy, and fantasies have unicorns in them...
Anyway, as you can probably guess by now, I believe in magic too... I suppose if we didn't, we'd all be writing so-called "realistic" novels, huh? ;)
Ann
Subj: Keep Dreaming
Date: 95-10-06 11:41:56 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Ann and Phrary.
In a world where the stautus quo, and what can be proven by hard fact dominates our thinking, sometimes it is hard to be a dreamer. Nevertheless, it is dreamers who advance this world, using their vision to bring it into another age.
I think that we need a few more dreamers...
So never forget what made your childhoods so special.
-Wolf
Subj: Re:Keep Dreaming
Date: 95-10-06 15:48:04 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Wolfsrunn--
I agree, we *do* need more dreamers--dreamers that are also willing to be *doers*... (And yes, I consider writing doing) <G>
BTW "Ann" and Phrary are the same person... Ann is my birth name, Phrary my screen one...
Muses bless!
Subj: OOPs
Date: 95-10-06 16:04:40 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Sorry Ann,
My blunder!
:)
Subj: Re:OOPs
Date: 95-10-06 21:20:13 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
N000 Problemo---
I know how it gets when the ideas start going faster than the eyes and hands can keep up, especially at night... (early morning?) what time zone are you in?
Subj: Contemporary fantasy
Date: 95-10-07 13:04:44 EST
From: Mlindholm
Posted on: America Online
Actually, there's an odd little corner of the genre market that blends magic and our contemporary world. Really good examples:
WAR FOR THE OAKS. by Emma Bull. The Faery courts battle it out on the Minneapolis music club scene.
Lots of stuff by Charles de Lint: Jack the Giant Killer, for example, but many others. (I'm terrible with titles. Sorry.) Just check out his name in your local book store to find a good selection.
And (forgive me) my own WIZARD OF THE PIGEONS and my collaboration with Steve Brust The Gypsy.
You can mix magic with technology, or set it in a more contemporary technological era. It's sort of fun . . .
Subj: An Invitation
Date: 95-10-07 14:59:12 EST
From: GreatLemur
Posted on: America Online
I know people hate it when people do things like this, but I've really got to try. You see, some other people, mostly teens (and other than me, all female), have been writing an ongoing fantasy . . . uh, thing at The Quantum Que, The Young Dragon (teen). It's sort of a freeform roleplaying thing where we each write, in third person, the actions of our own characters. Things've slowed down a bit lately, and I'm just sort of hoping to bring in some new blood by posting these irritationg things around. So if you want to see what we've been doing, Keyword: "que"; then "gRaFfItI, the Que & PC Clubs"; and finally "Dump Dirt to the Quantum Que". We're in "The Young Dragon (teen)".
Subj: New here
Date: 95-10-08 10:46:36 EST
From: Reewriter
Posted on: America Online
Glad to read Wolfrunn's END OF THE FEUD, because I was enjoying paging through the folder until the flames began - yawn - short and sweet, that's my motto, which reminds me of the rejection I got from MZB for a 1700 word story that said, and I quote "Your story takes too long to get to the point" at the end of this form letter was scrawled in pen "Too many SF elements, please try again" My fault, I'm sure, for submitting to a magazine that should probably be printed in crayon. I am published in this field, and belong to SFFWA. It's nice to meet you all!
Subj: Horses
Date: 95-10-08 18:17:17 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
Phrary,
Interesting you should mention equitation as physical therapy -- When I was a kid I rode extensively on the Midwest show circuit, hunters and jumpers and dressage -- and taught several kids and adults with CP and other disabilities to ride. One of hte most rewarding things I have ever done...SOme of the kids had never been able to do anything physical at all before.
I also lost my equine companion, Star, when I was 10 or 11. Though I later purchased, and trained, a blood bay Arabian, Robin, who I loved as I have loved no one else, I will never forget Star. It was a tough thing to deal with, and I think growing up with horses is why i think of them as people -- They really do function, think, have personalities, at about a three or four year old person level, though I think in ways they are much wiser than people. I had a jumper once who would jump in and out of the pasture for fun...Unless you wanted her to!
MaryAnne
Subj: Fantasy
Date: 95-10-08 18:22:30 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I don't like to pigeonhole myself. When I started writing, I wrote a lot of sword & sorcery, but now that tends to get mixed in with elements of a lot of other things. (I read everything, and a lot of it, and it all seems to creep into my stories.) In fact, I've become somewhat annoyed at the wide conception of fantasy that seems only to allow sword & sorcery or what my mother called "weird trash" (as in, MaryAnne, get your weird trash out of the living room. >:> )
Really, my goal sometimes is to take those elements and move them around, or pull them out of place a little. I'm working right now on sort of a reverse fantasy idea -- We always hear about kids who disappear into portals to save worlds, or whatever device you favor. I think most of us assume (or the author tells us) that time warp allows their disappearance not to be noticed. But what if it was? I'm trying now to write the story of a mother whose daughter disappears for a summer to the fairies or the dragons, or somewhere. (Obviously it's in the formative stages...)
I would agree that "realistic"fiction is passing away in favor of at least some elements of fantasy or "magic realism." More and more of the poeple in my writing classes are using those tools, even if they don't consider themselves fantasy writers...I think we might be getting (shudder) respectable!
MaryAnne
Subj: "Traveling with the Dead" WOW
Date: 95-10-08 21:12:13 EST
From: Jerusha000
Posted on: America Online
Possible spoilers
I tried to ration myself, to make the book last longer. I read the first chapter Friday night, slept, then spend all day Saturday finishing it. Barbara Hambly has done it again for me, created an incredible novel that wrenches you straight into the plot and leaves you breathless at the end. Very breathless. When I heard she was doing a sequal to "Those Who Hunt the Night," one possible plot idea I speculated was that Lydia would seek out Don Simon because James has disappeared. Above and beyond that I didn't know what to expect, and boy! did some of the events blow me out of the water. The parallels between what happens to James, Lydia, and their vampiric companions intrigued me, and the end left me with a sort of hollow hurt for them all. Wonderful book!
Subj: Order/chaos
Date: 95-10-09 14:27:21 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
L.E. Modesitt, Jr. just released his newest publication:
"The Death of Chaos"
Modesitt is probably one of my favorite authors right now, and if any of you have not read some of his work, I believe it is a MUST for anyone who develops a style through the practice of reading. He is profoundly diligent in his examination of detail and his level of creative genius. Above and beyond, his system of magic is one of the most innovative i have ever read.
Sorry if this sounds like a book review, but i was very excited to see the newest on the bookshelf!
-Wolf
Subj: Phew!
Date: 95-10-09 17:00:08 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
Well, here I am again as Rickellen (formally Paradys2 until my next 200 minutes runs out) and I haven't been here in awhile. Looks like you guys had fun while I was gone. Well, concerning the dicussion at hand. I'd like to make some late comments about the difference between SF an Fantasy. I once heared that the difference is that Science Fiction writing or movies or whatever are dipictions of what could happen. Many of the technological advances made in the past I don't know how many years were *predicted* by SF writers/moviemakers/etc. Fantasy is a depiction of things that could not happen. That definition assumes, of course, that there is no magic in the world or anything of the sort. If you've been around for awhile, you know that we had a lengthy discussion about weather <sp?> or not magic existed. I think that there is sometimes a fine line between SF and Fantasy because they have some of the same elements. I think the biggest difference is that most SF uses technology as part of the plot and fantasy doesn't. But then again there are many exceptions. I guess it really all depends on what you want it to be. A borderline piece may be accepted by one genre and not the other, but there are some that are definately either/or.
(breathing now)
I personally loved the Chronicles of Narnia, they were my favorite books. They were the first real fantasy books I had read (not counting fairy tales). Most of the other books pushed on pre-adolecents <sp> are all about real life and growing up and those <gack> Sweet Valley and Babysitters Club books. I never liked those. I think more fantasy and SF shoud be on the market for that age group. My other favorite books from that period of my life are the Bunnicula series. Does anyone remember those? That started me on vampyres and I read and watched everything I could get my hands on in that subject. They shoud put more SF in high school reading lists too (it might have made my summer reading easier) besides The Martian Chronicles, which I loved.
Anyway, I'm done.
Subj: Re:Phew!
Date: 95-10-09 19:50:25 EST
From: Keala Skye
Posted on: America Online
I was here once, a very long time ago... Once, on 7/23, I said I had found a home... Well, anyhow, this is Kelli, formerly Wrynyl, coming back home after a few problems and some time off line. I didn't take much time to read the posts, but it looks like things were a little messy here...
Rickellen- I loved Narnia myself, and they were some of the first fantasy books that I got my brother to read. I do remember Bunnicula... I still have the books in my attic. :)
Well, I'll be back again soon to post again, I hope. :) It feels pretty good to be back. :) It is good to see this board is returning to it's friendly attmosphere.
Kelli
Subj: Re:Fantasy
Date: 95-10-09 21:21:57 EST
From: StarWolf31
Posted on: America Online
Yes, MaryAnne, I think fantasy is becoming respectable. But shouldn't we expect it? After all, sci-fi is not only respectable, but a hot topic. Just check the new shows on TV. Personally, I'm a Star Trek and Babylon5 fan. <g>
Subj: Re: Fantasy
Date: 95-10-10 11:19:11 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I suppose I should admit now that I was watching Star Trek (the original) before there were even any movies! ;) My first (attempted) novel was even an ST novel...
Still, I must have started right, because I started with Narnia, in fact still own a set and am searching for a new one...I never seem to tire of it. Then, an enlightened teacher put Madeliene L'Engle on a reading list, and Tolkein in sixth grade, and I never stopped...
MaryAnne
Subj: Re: Fantasy
Date: 95-10-10 16:26:28 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
Oh, yes! I also loved the A wrinkle in Time books, they were so good. The Science Fiction book club is selling a set of hardback Narnia books that look really nice.
Subj: Re:Fantasy
Date: 95-10-11 19:55:56 EST
From: EKathy
Posted on: America Online
MaryAnne you can bring your weird trash into my livingroom any time you want. AS long as you don't make fun of any of the other weird trash you find there. Not to mention the people.
Funny you should mention the time line reversal business - I was thinking of a twist on it the other day in the car my self. E-mail me if you want to kick it around. Don't worry about theft. Even if you tried - a dozen stories on the same theme would be sooo different you couldn't tell.
Kathy
Subj: Re:Fantasy
Date: 95-10-11 20:40:46 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Perhaps "genre" catagories themselves are passing out of fashion, people are becoming more interested in stories that are just *good* stories... Like you, I am finding more stories that (for example) are stuck in the children's fantasy shelf in the library but that just as easily might be put in the realistic section as psychological thrillers... (specifically, I'm thinking of *Winter of the Birds* by <I Forget :/>--at the end, I was left wondering if the mysterious steel birds of the title were *really* attacking, or if they were just a figment of the view-point character's imagination...).
ANYway--that's more like life, isn't it? If you're of a mystical, magical bent then narrowly missing a train that later crashed would be a miracle to you, but if you believe more in the views of Einstien and Newton, then it would just be coincindence. I don't see why we should expect our readers to be any different.
As for being "respectable"--never! Whatever genre I'm writing in, I want to be just a bit subversive... If what I'm writing only repeats what "everyone" already believes, why spend my time writing it? People are 90% water... If you don't stir 'em up a little, they get stagnant... <G>
Subj: Death of Chaos: Modesitt
Date: 95-10-12 01:49:52 EST
From: Mlindholm
Posted on: America Online
Just adding a second to Wolfrun's recommendation of this book. It's order versus chaos rather than good versus evil, and he is careful not to equate order to good or chaos to bad. This is not a fluffy read; you have to pay attention to this book to get the full sense of what is going on, but if you are willing to, the author really delivers.
Subj: Re:Death of Chaos: Modesitt
Date: 95-10-13 08:48:43 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
I have to agree.
I think that some of Modesitt comes out in my writing. I have at least bridged his idea of a wide gray are between good and evil. I do not truly differentiate between the two. In my novels, what is "good" is what will get a certain race of peoples what they need. What is "evil" is anything that opposes those goals.
The only definitive "evil" on fallon might be the Deamonkind, but then they are only fighting to return to a world they were banished from for being different. As fallon is, either the Daemonkind, or the Angeal (later to become the Elron and then the "Maen"-which split into the race of men and faery) could live there, but not both. The races are so different, that it is their nature to destroy each other. So who is truly evil and who is good?
The characters come to the world and don't really care. (mostly)
They just want to keep from being manipulated, and they use both the forces of harmony and disorder to do so.
Thought i'd just rant a little about my book :)
-Eric
Subj: Good and evil
Date: 95-10-13 14:51:36 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
Actually, we were just discussing this topic in English. My teacher was telling us about how most liturature is written with the basic concept of good vs evil which is quite true. The only problem I have with that is that I don't belive there is pure good or evil in the world. Some might argue (especially if you happen to be Christian) that the bible tells us what is good and evil. I say that some people do bad things and some do really bad things and oters do nice things but not everyone is purely good or evil. I think we all have some of both qualities because no one is perfect and no one is so terrible that they are just evil. That is why I like to read works that have the characters as real as we are, with elements of good and bad in them. Wolf's book is certainly that and so is the novel that Sephas1 is currently writing. When writers use that it shows intellegence; in my humble opinion, of course.
OK, I'll stop talking now.
Subj: Re:Good and evil
Date: 95-10-13 16:19:07 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Now, *that* is one of my all-time pet peeves: "Bad Guys" who *want* to be bad guys--you see a lot of it in early morning kids' shows (often with a sci-fi S&S theme "I, GreyBrain, will get the magic potion from GoodHeart, and then Evil will triumph <Bra-ha-hah-ha!>"). Puh-lease! I never bought that, even when I was 8. I'm *not* Christian, and while I believe in the existance of evil, I don't believe it is an *active* force, (light is a radiant energy, darkness isn't)... but rather, the result of a sort of spiritual imbalance.
I think ol' Will Shakespeare had it right. In his imagery he constrasted love with fear instead of hatred. Fear closes us within boundries, love opens us up. But that doesn't mean that fear is 'evil'--some things (like pits of fire, 200 foot cliffs, dark alleys in a strange neighborhood, etc.) *should* to have boundries of fear around them. Evil occurs when fear and love get out of balance, and either fear *or* love blinds our judgement to such an extent that we bring ourselves or others to harm.
But I think the evil villian became such a fixture in literature for two reasons: 1) S/he makes an easily identified and powerful conflict for the progtagonist to fight against, and 2) we *do* live in a culture strongly influenced by Christianity and the villian is a sort of literary symbol of Satan.
When I was in my freshman year of college, we had to read *The Neverending Story* for one of my classes, and I was really impressed with it. In the first half, the protagonist is the "hero", and in the second half, the "villian"... And the character was believable in both roles. In the novel I'm trying to write now, I'm playing around with that idea--and is it a challenge! <G>...
Subj: Fanzine looking for submissions
Date: 95-10-13 18:12:12 EST
From: JarlThran
Posted on: America Online
Greetings fantasy writers...
Wolfsrunn has graciously consented to my appearing here on the board to ask for your help.
ENGAGE! is a science fiction/fantasy fan magazine that this issue celebrates its fourth birthday with a look at the art of science fiction and fantasy. Based in Memphis, Tennessee, ENGAGE! is carried in outlets throughout the metropolitan area and has a subscriber base that includes Florida. We have printed articles, fiction, and cartoons from people all over the US, and would like you to help us broaden our entertainment base.
If you are interested in submitting something for consideration, please contact me at JarlThran@aol.com or ENGAGE96@aol.com, or you can write for a free sample to:
ENGAGE! Fan Magazine
P.O. Box 281140
Memphis, TN 38168
We cannot, unfortunately, render any payment other than copies at this time. However, we can assure you that the magazine that contains your work will be distributed to shops around Memphis that entertain hundreds of customers a day. Your name, work, art, or whatever, will be before the public. If you want a chance to see how your work is accepted, submit it now... after getting the guidelines, of course :)
This is all free (minus the postage, natch). Look forward to hearing from you.
David Blalock
Managing Editor,
ENGAGE! Fan Magazine
Subj: Topics of discussion?
Date: 95-10-14 21:21:40 EST
From: Lady Xull
Posted on: America Online
Let's see now...........
I have seen enough book reviews to last me a lifetime.
I have seen philosophical rants about topics of no real value
BORINGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
..and tedious to read.
I thought this was a Writers Message Board. I guess I was miles off.
Subj: Re:Topics of discussion?
Date: 95-10-15 14:38:52 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
This is a writer's message board. What else do you think we're going to talk about? Other writer's, their works and our philisophical discussions are about the things we are currently writing about. If you have a problem w/ the topics discussed then you don't have to read the board. Or better yet, suggest some topics of your own. This board is all about fantasy writing. ALL ASPECTS OF IT. So come on Lady, chalenge us.
Subj: New on-line
Date: 95-10-15 16:47:52 EST
From: TroJon 1
Posted on: America Online
I find a good way to brainstorm for new ideas is to write one of my interests in the center of a page and write things all around it that have to do with that topic, then, do it again for each word that I just wrote. It's called clustering, and it's helped me out of many slumps...=)
Lou Ann
Subj: Re:New on-line
Date: 95-10-15 21:10:42 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Hello! And Welcome! I use that technique, too! As a matter of fact, I should log off right now and do that...
I have piece I need to get done in by next week. Not sure if it will be poetry or fiction, even, but I want to express the idea that our 'selves' are neither our minds (souls) or bodies, but the *pattern* into which our thoughts and bodies grow--that we are both the work of art and the artist of our lives...
Definitely a project for "clustering"
Subj: Expanding Our Content
Date: 95-10-16 00:36:38 EST
From: DARKERWOOD
Posted on: America Online
The Darker Woods is now expanding its content to include Sword and Sorcery Fantasy, Horror, and Science Fiction along with Dark Fantasy. All stories should be at most, 3,000 words. Arrangements for longer works can be made. For guidelines send e-mail to DARKERWOOD or Write to: The Darker Woods, c/o S. Connolly, Editor, 4997 W. 73rd Ave.
Westminster, CO 80030
You can, of course, submit without guidelines either through E-Mail or ground mail to either of the above addresses, but the guidelines are a good thing to check into first for required format and other important information. We're really looking to publish unpublished or underpublished writers if possible. We look forward to hearing from you!
Best Wishes: S. Connolly, Editor
Subj: MZB
Date: 95-10-16 14:39:09 EST
From: EKathy
Posted on: America Online
OUCH - OUCH - twitch
I asked for it and I GOT it. A Nasty rejection.
A person should not get such a sence of satisfaction from from goading an editor. But it was fun.
You shouldn't poke fun at Mother Nature OR MZB !
I may have to officially change my name to get published by her now.
OH well . . .
some people have an evil sence of humor
and a few real dumb ones subcome to it
I may live to regret this but sign me -
A (for the moment) happy reject Kathy
Subj: Re:Lady Xull
Date: 95-10-16 17:39:34 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
If you are so bored, milady,
Why not present a topic...
I am sure we will all find it interesting.
-Wolfsrunn
Subj: Re:Magazines
Date: 95-10-16 17:45:01 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Kathy,
Don't get too stressed about rejections. For a writer it happens far too often.
It seems that this board has become a place for quite a few magazines to post submission requests. I think that perhaps we are impressing "someone."
I've enjoyed the discussion on good and evil. It seems that in Fantasy, the balance between the two is the most driving factor. An author must first define what good and evil might be, and then set the stage for the battle. For myself, this battle is often internal...characters in another land who do not know how to act, nor what is right.
They just plod along and do their best, hoping that it will all come out alright in the end.
(And sometimes it almost does. Almost.)
-Wolfsrunn
Subj: Rejections, mags, good and evil
Date: 95-10-16 18:30:57 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
Kathy--
I once read somewhere that you're not a *real* writer until you can plaster the walls of your room with rejection notices. To get a rejection means you at least had the guts to send it out, and you need to--again and again. I've also heard you're not a real equestrian until you've fallen from the horse, and gotten back in the saddle. Same principle.
Wolfsrunn is right--there are plenty of magazines in the newstand, and if one editor didn't like your piece, there's probably another out there as well... If your rejection was a real stinger, it probably means you hit a nerve somewhere, which also means your story has some strength to it or at least shows enough promise to call for an imaginative reply... Try, try again.
As for "good and evil", I think that's the driving force behind all stories. But I think we fantasy writers create paradinamic <is that a word? Well, anyway, it is now!>, symbolic worlds to explore the basic forces and structure of the "everyday" world in which we live... So the tension between good and evil is laid bare, stripped of the surface veils of customs and morals which seems to be the focus of "mainstream" fiction...
Subj: Re:Rejections, mags, good and ev
Date: 95-10-17 16:38:30 EST
From: ODunn
Posted on: America Online
Well, it's been a good while since I've been here, so I guess I might as well post something. Greetings to all (whether you remember my posts from two months ago or not), and condolences to Kathy. I haven't submitted yet, so I don't really know the rejection feeling. However, I just asked the Darkerwood guys for guidelines, so I may know the feeling sooner than I think. Hopefully somebody will like the little world I've put ten-plus years into...
Anyhow, I think y'all are right about the good and evil; and I know for a fact that I've made my world (Kiruv, for those who have to know) *very* symbolic of the fight between good and evil as it is here and now.
And, that's just the fantasy novel. I am also working on a short story that delves into the darkness of two mens' hearts, and, eventually into Hell itself.
Well, enough harping about myself and my own paradynamic (ooh, cool word!!!) delvings into the worlds of fantasy. Anybody know where to find a good agent?
Later,
ODunn
Subj: Re:Topics of discussion?
Date: 95-10-17 18:41:14 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
But only challenge in a PC fashion. If anybody is *really* challenged, they'll throw down their crayons and refuse to play with you anymore.
Subj: Re:MZB
Date: 95-10-17 18:43:04 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Go ahead. Share it. Believe me, you're not the first and NOBODY will laugh at you because MZB ain't nice with her rejects. No one seems to take them seriously. I can recommend some *nice* editors* if you contact me privately.
Subj: Re:Topics of discussion?
Date: 95-10-17 20:09:15 EST
From: Lady Xull
Posted on: America Online
When people talk about their own writing: How they end a story, what they are writing about, how they develop characters, ect.....I do not have a problem. I enjoy reading about how other people get around the tough points in writing and hopefully add some suggestions of my own.
But, the primary discussion seems to focus on who has read who's book, who's imitating who's style, who has such and such philosophy................yes, Wolfie, Milady gets bored
It seems to me, Wolf, that you are very easily offended. Too bad.
Subj: Re:Keep Dreaming
Date: 95-10-17 23:45:54 EST
From: KEIFCAMBER
Posted on: America Online
If it wasn't for us Dreamers, Then we would not have the technology we do today. And I would not be writing this, and sending it Via. phone line. If there is no magic in the world, as most say, Then I believe that the world must be dead, as a whole. For without the magic, the whole thing would unravel and fall apart.
~Just my own personal opinion.
~Keif Camber.
Subj: Re:Topics of discussion?
Date: 95-10-18 09:16:01 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
Not Really Lady Xull! I actually have this tendency "not" to get offended by accusations!
But why not suggest a topic?
What questions might you ask, or what ideas might you offer?
For example,
I have been spell checking this novel for the last few days. One thing i have found is that, like Phrary (Paradinamic) I often invent words and find myself continually adding to my dictionary. This is above and beyond those that are a new language for the purposes of a new world, etc... They are twists of the English language. I try my best to stay away from doing this, but oftimes can not help it.
Do any of you find such "new" words distracting?
Subj: Re:Topics of discussion?
Date: 95-10-18 18:19:25 EST
From: Rickellen
Posted on: America Online
What's wrong w/ a little philosophical disscussion and book reveiws. It's all relavant to the board and the topic we've all chosen to disscuss.
Subj: Re:Topics of discussion?
Date: 95-10-18 19:28:38 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Then call the board "prattling and musing" about areas on ther periphery of fantasy writing for hypersensitive wannabees, because that's largely what it is. Gosh, if one even hints that one is --horrors-- published, it is a sin since someone else might think less of their wannabee selves.
Subj: Re:Topics of discussion !!
Date: 95-10-19 11:40:20 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
huh???
I'm not upset, but I *am* curious... What do *you* want to talk about, or want to see discussed? In the time it takes to complain about a lack of discussions, you could just as easily start one.
Like this:
What are different techniques you use to create a character?
Are the techniques different for fantasy than for realistic fiction?
What about setting?
Can setting be a type of character (in that the protagonist can have an emotional relationship with the land that can grow and change with time)?
And once character and setting are decided on, how do translate them for the reader, who probably comes to your story from a different paradigm than the one within the world you've created?
This is not much of a problem in realistic fiction, where simply the mention of "A cop from New York City" or "An agent from LA" is often enough to set up the correct expectations in the reader--or *is* it?
There. Let's see what comes of that, shall we?
Ann (Published and proud of it)
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-10-19 16:34:04 EST
From: Talithia
Posted on: America Online
I am so glad that someone appreciates Misty's work with Van. I have read the trilogy at least five times and cry each time. I always tell myself that I know what will happen, but something new always affects me. I don't know how she can do it, but keep it up! :)
Subj: Re:READ ME!!!!!
Date: 95-10-19 16:40:08 EST
From: Talithia
Posted on: America Online
Ask yourself, What do like to read and start from there. It's also good to have some fav. authors handy to get a look at their work. *Don't copy their work however*
Subj: Mage wanna-bees
Date: 95-10-19 16:48:58 EST
From: Talithia
Posted on: America Online
Hey, all you fabo fantasy writers! I am in desperate need of help with my never-ending novel. I need really cool character names. I draw a complete blank when it comes to that. I'm sure my novel would be going much faster if I didn't stop everythime I needed a character name. Any help would be much appreciated. Please E-Mail me @Tailithia.
Again, thank you sooooooooooooooo much!
Talithia
Subj: Re:The Last Herald-Mage
Date: 95-10-19 20:06:16 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
I cry each time, too, for different reasons. Some parts I laugh prettily heartily; this stuff is such blatant PC swill.
Subj: Re:Mage wanna-bees
Date: 95-10-19 21:11:11 EST
From: Lady Xull
Posted on: America Online
Talithia,
I usually take a "strange" sounding name from reality and change some words around or spell it backwords, ect...
For example, I came up with my other screen name, Sulperia, after watching a bad horror movie called Susperia. I just changed the second S to an L.
Well, it may not be the most original way, but it works for me.
Subj: I'm confused
Date: 95-10-20 09:35:06 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
Wanna-bees? Who are the wanna-bees?
Anyway, the way I come up w/ names is I take a regular name or word that I like and I spell it a weird name. You can use the names of characters as symbolism. The name fits his/her personality or predicament. Like if someone was supposed to be a goddess or related to one etc., then her name could be Paradys (I'm partial to that one). Just think of what you want the character to do or be like.
Subj: Re:Mages
Date: 95-10-20 13:28:54 EST
From: Talithia
Posted on: America Online
This is great stuff!!!
Thanks, lords, ladies, bards, thieves, etc.
I still would like more ideas so keep them cxoming!!
Talithia
Subj: Wanna Bees
Date: 95-10-21 14:36:26 EST
From: Mlindholm
Posted on: America Online
This dangerous species of insect was mistakenly imported from Africa, in an effort to upgrade the quality of honey bees in South America. Unfortunately, their extreme aggression was not taken into consideration, and when some swarmed out on their own, they began to not only present a hazard to humans and livestock, but to compete all too successfully with the resident honeybees, and . . . . what? Oh. Never mind.
So, anyway, should my hero continue to be heroic to the end, or should he get bitter and disillusioned and as nasty as the bad guys he's fighting? Do people desire happy endings to their fantasy, or a swirl of reality within it? I guess I'll never know unless I get off this board and go write the book.
Subj: Re:Wanna Bees
Date: 95-10-21 22:27:53 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
Yes, do write the book. Advise the bad guys have some redeeming qualities (even Hitler liked dogs and small children, as long as they were blond). Allow heroes to accumulate scars. Flawless heroes are a bore.
Subj: Re:Wanna Bees
Date: 95-10-21 22:38:07 EST
From: Talithia
Posted on: America Online
I personally think that the antagonist doesn't have to have any redeeming qualities. If you want your character to truly be evil, why give him redeeming qualities? Why give the reader a chance to like him? However, if the character isn't all bad than go ahead and give him somme indering qualities. My main antagonist not only DOESN'T have any nice qualities, but he has the colest and callus heart I know.
I do agree, however, that a flawlesshero is a bore. I always have more feelings for a hero who has had some downfalls, than with one who has never had any problems.
Good luck,
Tal
Subj: Black hearts...
Date: 95-10-22 08:11:38 EST
From: Phrary
Posted on: America Online
The problem with *totally* evil characters, in my humble opinion, is that they lose credibility... If there there is nothing for me to actually like about them, then they should at least be able to logically explain why they do what they do (I might not agree with their argument, but I should at least understand it).
Shakspeare was an absolute master at this. He always gave his villians a chance to say their peace, and be *right*, too... Check out Shylock's speach in *The Merchant of Venice* ("If you prick me, do I not bleed?") and Iago's in *Othello* ("He who steals my purse steals trash."). I think this actually increases the anger that the reader/audience feels toward the character--the "I know you're not stupid, so why do you *choose* this path?" feeling... Just as adding a oinch of salt to a cake makes its sweetness taste better, adding flaws to heros and strengths to villians makes them more believable...
Subj: Re:Black hearts...
Date: 95-10-22 15:39:36 EST
From: Talithia
Posted on: America Online
Those are all very good points. I must admit that I get angry at the characters that seem to have been nice at one time or another.
Subj: Re:Black hearts...
Date: 95-10-22 18:06:50 EST
From: Paradys2
Posted on: America Online
I agree w/ Phray. Giving *evil* characters a more rounded personality actually makes them more believable and easier to dislike because they aren't just capable of evil. That's the way we handle real people. If someone we know does something stupid and we know they aren't then we're angrier at them than we would be at someone we see doing stupid things all the time.
Subj: Nowhere Magazine
Date: 95-10-22 19:46:33 EST
From: NowhereMag
Posted on: America Online
Nowhere Magazine . . .
This is Nowhere.
Nowhere is that place in your mind that you retreat to, the part of you that's open twenty-four hours a day. People swim in and out from time to time, but you're the most frequent customer.
This is the place that we all slide away to when Reality overwhelms us and tries to take over. Nowhere is where the dark and the light aspects of your soul collide: where everything is all right, even when there is a storm outside threatneing to cut off the power and blow in all the windows.
We don't really have to introduce you, then, do we? You were expected, after all, and now you're here. So sit at your favorite booth and look over the menu. Your waiter will be with you shortly. And yes, you can have dessert first. We promise that the staff will be around later to make sure everything's okay.
--------------------------------------------
Hello again from Nowhere Magazine. Time is passing by quickly, don't forget the dealine - October 31!!!!!!!!
For those of you who are here for the first time this ad will tell you a little more about the magazine. For those of you who have been here before, read on to see what's new with Nowhere Magazine.
--------------------------------------------
Nowhere Magazine: a new literary magazine made up entirely of on-line writers' prose, poetry, art, photos and reviews. There is no specific subject matter that we are looking for. We want variety!!!! Please keep all fiction and poetry submissions limited to 4 pages and all reviews to a page. If you would like to be featured in the first issue, send your work to us at:
NowhereMag@aol.com (AOLers can attach it as a file)
Or if you don't want to send it e-mail or know someone without e-mail access you can snail mail it to:
Nowhere Magazine
P.O. Box 435
Holbrook, NY 11741
We're also taking donations. Every little bit helps, so send cash checks, or money orders(made out to Nowhere Magazine) to the above address. All donations will be used to help make each issue better than the last, so you're not only helping us but you're also helping yourselves. There will be a page exclusively reserved for the names of anyone who donates money (even if its just some pocket change). The donator's page will have a diner theme:
$1.00 will get you inside
$3.00 will get you a seat at our bar
$5.00 will get you a reserved table
(for $6.00 you can have a booth)
and $10.00 will get you a private room
You keep all the rights to your work, so what's to lose? Also, the contributors of any accepted works will have the option of including a byline. Sample issues of the magazine are going to be distributed by e-mail at no cost to anyone so people can learn what we're about. The full printed version will be also be available.
Eventually we will include things like contests and personal ads. And hopefully by January we will have our Web page up. We'll keep you posted on upcoming events.
Don't forget!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEADLINE FOR FIRST ISSUE SUBMISSIONS :
October 31(Halloween)
Now that you've got some idea what we're about, send us your work. You've got a deadline to beat, remember?
-the staff @ Nowhere
If you are interested in advertising in Nowhere Magazine please e-mail us for information.
Subj: Evil
Date: 95-10-22 21:07:45 EST
From: KatrynK
Posted on: America Online
No one is thoroughly evil. Go and read the biographies of most serial killers and most of them have something about them was good--which doesn't redeem them. Utter, unrelieved evil is just not believable. I hate it when someone hatches out a villain with a semi-pronouncable name like Hrathgargle the Wicked. Can you imagine Hrathgargle as an infant? No? Then he's unbelievable, because all of us were infants once. We were the apple of someone's eyes; we were loved; someone held hopes for us.
Subj: Re:Evil
Date: 95-10-23 11:25:15 EST
From: Wolfsrunn
Posted on: America Online
I must agree with Karen.
There is a balance of good and evil in all of us. Somewhat like the Shadow side of the kindest of people. In the same way, even the most "evil" (defined as outside or against the moral idea of good, which is a complicated issue in of itself) of people feel compassion for something.
I truly enjoy the evil character who turns it around at the end, either seeing the errors of their ways, or performing some last act that hints of some heroic intention. For example, the character Raistlin, from the Dragonlance series. He was as black and self-serving as they come, but he still loved his brother Caramon, and his other friends.
In the end, Raistlin sacrificed himself to ensure that the evil god was unable to enter our world.
The more dynamic the character, the better. My heroes make mistakes that might be contrived as evil. They might fight for good, but there are no true paladins. People feel greedy and give into anger, they are only human. Veangance is a very good way to evolve the dark side of the "good guy."
So give your character those "scars" as Karen aptly put. They will seem both more credible and more human. More importantly, they will be more easy to relate to!
Subj: re: Someone to read my story.
Date: 95-10-24 12:02:01 EST
From: Sacred12
Posted on: America Online
I need someone with an objective opinion to read part of my story. I seem to be stuck in dialogue and need a tow.
thanks,
Sacred12
Subj: I'll read your story
Date: 95-10-24 19:23:12 EST
From: Talithia
Posted on: America Online
I believe I have an objective opinion and may be able to help you. I know that I've been stuck in parts of my stories before and have needed some critisem. Just E-mail me.
Talithia
Subj: Re:Black hearts...
Date: 95-10-25 22:41:10 EST
From: Zahrima
Posted on: America Online
In some things I've read, believe it or not, I've liked the evil characters better than the *good* characters because (s)he was more well rounded and believable. All too often, *good* characters are shown with very few flaws. It's always good to have *good* and *evil* characters who are well rounded. Not every *good* character has a spotless past. Nor has every *evil* character always done nothing but bad things. :)
Subj: Re:I'll read your story
Date: 95-10-26 12:20:24 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I'm willing to help, too. E-mail me!
Subj: Evil heros
Date: 95-10-26 12:25:01 EST
From: MGobble373
Posted on: America Online
I'm actually interested by something the original message hinted at, but no one's really discussed -- the idea of a hero who is not necessarily a good guy. Like what about the guy who does the right thing, but for the wrong reason? How important is motivation? And how does he feel about having done the right thing, once he realizes that's what he's done? (Especially if the result is the exact opposite of what he or she was hoping for...)
There are probably several books in there.
Comments?
MaryAnne
Subj: Gateway 2000, bad experience
Date: 95-10-26 18:28:21 EST
From: DanWalsh
Posted on: America Online
This post has nothing to do with this BB. Let it serve as a consumer alert for anyone in the market for a good laptop.
I am a fed-up Gateway 2000 customer, who is doing the only thing I can do at this point. Communicate my disappointing experience with other would-be buyers, so they can be aware of what they might expect "after the sale." I recently purchased a Gateway Solo laptop, actually spent about $400 more for it than comparable machines because of a belief in their reliability. After 3 days of normal operation, and after transferring all my business and personal files to the new computer, the AC adaptor died. Within 2-3 hours, the remaining battery power died, and the computer was useless. I contacted their Tech Support 24 hour number, and my unfortunate experience began.
First, I waited for 30 minutes on hold, then hung up. Finally, at midnight after waiting 40 more minutes on hold a nice technician got on the phone. He agreed that a new AC adaptor was needed and said one would be sent out right away. I asked what "right away" meant, and he said 3-5 working days. I said, politely, that was unacceptable, that I was dead in the water. Wasn't there anyway it could be expedited? To have a $4,000 computer dead after 3 days, and then be unwilling to spend a few extra bucks to get the part to the customer within 2 days seemed unreasonable to me. He said he would do what he could. Two days later--no AC adapter. Remember, I'm dead in the water. On the third day, I called customer service. Another polite Gateway rep told me that they were very sorry, but no order for an AC adaptor had even been placed. The Tech Support guy blew it. I couldn't believe it. I expressed my frustration as gently and clearly as I could, said I was very close to shipping the whole thing back for a refund. She assured me they would overnight it to me, again apologizing profusely. Two more days later--no AC adapter. Again, I called, this time not so gentle. A third customer rep informed me that my AC adapter still hadn't left the plant. I couldn't believe it. Now, I'm on my 5th day waiting for an AC adapter, with a useless $4,000 laptop.
Now, they are saying (after more apologies and quite a few excuses) that the part will be overnighted to me again. I'm not holding my breath. I can tell you this, when the part comes I will only use it long enough to power up my computer and delete all of my personal files, then ship it back to Gateway for a full refund.
Why am I sharing all this? For two reasons: 1) It is the only leverage I have. 2) This kind of thing doesn't show up in their fancy magazine ads.
Subj: Re:Gateway 2000, bad experie
Date: 95-10-26 22:43:33 EST
From: OC Adam M
Posted on: America Online
I would post this on gateway's internet newsgroup for max coverage.
8/27/56 6:19:24 PM Closing Log file.
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