New York Times Interview with the Dalai Lama

 

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Issue ID: 93/12/05 07:25 GMT

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Table of Contents

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1. New York Times Interview with the Dalai Lama ....................... 367

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(from CND)

Source: The New York Times, 11/28/1993

Written by: Claudia Dreifus

The last place one expects to find His Holiness Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th

Dalai Lama of Tibet, the exiled secular and religious leader of the Tibetan

people, the winner of the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, the world's leading

exponent of nonviolent political change, is at a glitzy Tucson, Ariz.,

golfing resort called the Sheraton El Conquistador. Yet there he was on a

recent autumn morning, dressed in his traditional maroon robes, surrounded

by Buddhist monks and non-Buddhist bodyguards, astonishing tourists as he

rushed past the snack bar.

The Dalai Lama had come to this unlikely corner of the world to give a

series of interpretive readings from "A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of

Life" by Shantideva, an eighth-century Buddhist saint. For five full days,

1,500 attendees risked bad backs and cramped hands to sit for hours taking

notes on the nature of patience. For them, participants in the expanding

Buddhist movement in the Western world, this was a rare opportunity to study

with the head of the faith -- the equivalent of taking Bible classes from

the Pope.  Moreover, many of the aspirants were more secular types, veterans

of the 1960's who'd come to regard the Dalai Lama as the Rev. Dr. Martin

Luther King Jr., the Mahatma Gandhi of this political moment. It is a forum

the Dalai Lama clearly enjoys, a needed break from routine as head of the

Tibetan government-in-exile in India. "I am a simple Buddhist monk -- no

more, no less," he often says of himself. At the teachings, he gets to be

that.

Yet his life has been anything but simple. Born in 1935 to a peasant family

in northeast Tibet, he was, at the age of 2, identified after the death of

the 13th Dalai Lama as the 14th reincarnation of the Buddha of Compassion.

That recognition brought a new name; Lhamo Thondup now became Jetsun Jamphel

Ngawang Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso (Holy Lord, Gentle Glory, Eloquent,

Compassionate, Learned Defender of the Faith, Ocean of Wisdom). Taken to

Lhasa to be educated, he grew up in a 1,000-room palace, surrounded by

doting monks who tutored him in subjects like philosophy, medicine and

metaphysics and gave him a childhood of pure magic.

The magic ended in 1950 when the 15-year-old Dalai Lama was called upon to

assume full powers as head of state. This, at the very moment the People's

Liberation Army of China was invading Tibet. For the next nine years, the

young ruler attempted to negotiate with Mao Zedong and Chou En-lai, who were

intent on absorbing Tibet into China. Then, in 1959, after China brutally

"quelled" a Tibetan civilian uprising against Chinese rule, the Dalai Lama

fled to India; some 100,000 Tibetans have since followed him across the

Himalayas.

In India, he was permitted to set up a government-in-exile in a small

village, Dharamsala, a long day's drive from New Delhi. "His Holiness

reconstructed a viable Tibetan community in India, preserving the culture of

Tibet," says his close friend Robert Thurman, professor of Indo-Tibetan

studies at Columbia University. "He held the Tibetan people together in

exile and gave them hope during the very severe, even genocidal oppression

in their homeland.  He's also the first leader of Tibet to become a world

leader, even without a political base -- just on his moral force."

In Tucson, a day after his teachings were completed, the Dalai Lama met in

his suite with the interviewer. As would be expected from someone who has

been worshiped as a demigod since age 2, he greets strangers with a mask of

pleasant formality, which soon melts as he becomes engaged in ideas and

conversation. An hour and a half becomes three; formality turns to laughter.

One senses he's a little bored by the adulation that is his daily fare. The

most striking thing about the Dalai Lama is his capacity for joy -- how

widely he smiles, how amused he is by his own contradictions, his own human

foibles. The journalist William Shirer once said of his interviews with

Gandhi in the 1930's, "You felt you were the only person in the room, that

he had all the time in the world for you." This is true of Tenzin Gyatso

also.

   Q: Your Holiness, you seem such a happy person. Have there been

moments in your life when your faith in human goodness was tested?

   The Dalai Lama: No.

   Q:You've never felt in danger of becoming cynical?

   A: No. Of course, when I say that human nature is gentleness, it is not

100 percent so. Every human being has that nature, but there are many people

acting against their nature, being false. Certainly there have been sad

moments for me.  The Chinese suppressions in Lhasa in 1987, 1988, now that

was sad. A great many people were killed. I am sometimes sad when I hear the

personal stories of Tibetan refugees who have been tortured or beaten. Some

irritation, some anger comes. But it never lasts long. I always try to think

at a deeper level, to find ways to console.

   Q: I understand that you were very angry during the 1990 gulf war, as

angry as you've ever been.

   A: Angry? No. But one thing, when people started blaming Saddam Hussein,

then my heart went out to him.

   Q: To Saddam Hussein?

   A: Yes. Because this blaming everything on him -- it's unfair. He may be

a bad man, but without his army, he cannot act as aggressively as he does.

And his army, without weapons, cannot do anything. And these weapons were

not produced in Iraq itself. Who supplied them? Western nations! So one day

something happened and they blamed everything on him -- without

acknowledging their own contributions. That's wrong. The gulf crisis also

clearly demonstrated the serious implications of the arms trade. War --

without an army, killing as few people as possible -- is acceptable. But the

suffering of large numbers of people due to a military mission, that is sad.

   Q: Did you say that killing sometimes is acceptable?

   A: Comparatively. In human society, some people do get killed, for a

variety of reasons. However, when you have an established army, and

countries with those armies go to war, the casualties are immense. It's not

one or two casualties, it's thousands. And with nuclear weapons, it's

millions, really millions. For that reason, the arms trade is really

irresponsible. Irresponsible! Global demilitarization is essential.

   Q: In Tibet, from the late 1950's until the early 1970's, one of your

brothers was involved in leading a guerrilla movement against the Chinese.

In fact, the guerrillas were supported by the C.I.A. How did you feel about

that?

   A: I'm always against violence. But the Tibetan guerrillas were very

dedicated people. They were willing to sacrifice their own lives for the

Tibetan nation. And they found a way to receive help from the C.I.A. Now,

the C.I.A.'s motivation for helping was entirely political. They did not

help out of genuine sympathy, not out of support for a just cause. That was

not very healthy.

   Today, the help and support we receive from the United States is truly

out of sympathy and human compassion. In spite of their desire for good

relations with China, the Congress of the United States at least supports

Tibetan human rights. So this is something really precious, genuine.

   Q: To change the subject, you have spoken, as few religious leaders have,

of the dangers of global overpopulation.

   A: Well, the population problem is a serious reality. In India, some

people were reluctant to accept birth control because of religious

traditions. So I thought, from the Buddhist viewpoint, there is a

possibility of flexibility on this problem. I thought it might be good to

speak out and eventually create more open space for leaders in other

religious traditions to discuss the issue.

   Q: How do you feel, then, about Pope John Paul II's continued opposition

to birth control?

   A: That's his religious principle. He is acting from a certain principle

-- especially when he speaks about the need to respect the rights of

fetuses.  Actually, I feel very touched that the Pope has taken a stand on

that.

   Q: Can you also understand the needs of a woman who might not be able to

raise a child?

   A: When I was in Lithuania a few years ago, I visited a nursery and I was

told, "All these children are unwanted." So I think it is better that that

situation be stopped right from the beginning -- birth control. Of course,

abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative,

generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances. If the unborn child

will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the

parent, these are cases where there can be an exception. I think abortion

should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance.

   Q: I understand you've experienced a major change in thinking about the

role of women in the world.

   A: It's not so much a change. I've gained an awareness of the sensitivity

of women's issues; even in the 1960's and 1970's, I didn't have much

knowledge of this problem. The basic Buddhist stand on the question of

equality between the genders is age-old. At the highest tantric levels, at

the highest esoteric level, you must respect women: every woman. In Tibetan

society, there has been some careless discrimination. Yet there have been

exceptional women, high lamas, who are respected throughout Tibet.

   Q: In a recent issue of the Buddhist magazine Tricycle, the actor

Spalding Gray asked you about your dreams, and you said you sometimes dreamt

of women fighting.

   A: Women fighting? No, no. . . .  What I meant was that, in my dreams,

sometimes women approach me and I immediately realize, "I'm bhikshu, I'm

monk."  So you see, this is sort of sexual. . . .

   Q: In your dreams, you realize this and you "fight" the feeling?

   A: Yes. Similarly, I have dreams where someone is beating me and I want

to respond. Then, immediately I remember, "I am monk and I should not kill."

   Q: Do you ever experience rages? Even Jesus had rages.

   A: Don't compare me with Jesus. He is a great master, a great master. . .

.  But as to your question, when I was younger, I did get angry. In the past

30 years, no. One thing, the hatred, the ill-feeling, that's almost gone.

   Q: So what are your weaknesses and faults?

   A: Laziness.

   Q: It is said that you get up at 4 in the morning. How can you be lazy?

   A: It's not that kind of laziness. For instance, sometimes, when I visit

some Western countries, I develop an enthusiasm to improve my English. But

when I actually make the effort to study, after a few days, my enthusiasm is

finished.  [Laughs.] That is laziness. Other weaknesses are, I think, anger

and attachments. I'm attached to my watch and my prayer beads. Then, of

course, sometimes beautiful women. . . . But then, many monks have the same

experience.  Some of it is curiosity: If you use this, what is the feeling?

[Points to his groin.]

   Then, of course, there is the feeling that something sexual must be

something very happy, a marvelous experience. When this develops, I always

see the negative side. There's an expression from Nagurajuna, one of the

Indian masters: "If you itch, it's nice to scratch it. But it's better to

have no itch at all."  Similarly with the sexual desire. If it is possible

to be without that feeling, there is much peace. [Smiles.] And without sex,

there's no worry about abortion, condoms, things like that.

   Q: Sir, your laugh is world famous -- what makes you laugh?

   A: There is something in my family . . . a tendency to laugh a lot. One

brother, Gyalo Thondup, doesn't laugh too much. Another, Lobsang Samten, was

very fond of cracking dirty jokes. A third, Taktser Rinpoche, he also

laughed a lot. And Tibetans generally are very good-natured. In my

childhood, I had a religious assistant who always told me, "If you can

really laugh with full abandonment, it's very good for your health."

   Q: What do you do for leisure, to relax?

   A: I like to let my thoughts come to me each morning before I get up. I

meditate for a few hours and that is like recharging. After that, my daily

conduct is usually driven by the motivation to help, to create a positive

atmosphere for others. I garden . . . gardening is one of my hobbies. Also,

reading encyclopedias with pictures. [Laughs.] I am a man of peace, but I am

fond of looking at picture books of the Second World War. I own some, which

I believe are produced by Time-Life. I've just ordered a new set. Thirty

books.

   Q: Really? Why does the Reincarnation of Compassion have such a

fascination with one of the most terrible events in human history?

   A: Perhaps because the stories are so negative and gruesome, they

strengthen my belief in nonviolence. [Smiles.] However, I find many of the

machines of violence very attractive. Tanks, airplanes, warships, especially

aircraft carriers. And the German U-boats, submarines. . . .

   Q: I once read that as a little boy in Lhasa, you liked war toys.

   A: Yes, very much. I also had an air rifle in Lhasa. And I have one in

India.  I often feed small birds, but when they come together, hawks spot

them and catch them -- a very bad thing. So in order to protect these small

birds, I keep the air rifle.

   Q: So it is a Buddhist rifle?

   A: [Laughs] A compassionate rifle!

   Q: Let me ask you a difficult question in that regard. You are

indispensable to your movement. Are you ever afraid you might suffer the

same fate as Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.?

   A: The thought sometimes crosses my mind. As far as being

"indispensable," people can carry on without me.

   Q: Asian scholars say that the Tibetan nation wouldn't have survived

after 1959 if you had not been such a skilled political leader. That being

the case, aren't you concerned that the Chinese might try to finish off the

Tibetan independence movement by killing you?

   A: Some Chinese have frankly said to Tibetans: "You only have one person.

If we take care of that, the problem is solved."

   Q: Have you prepared yourself for the possibility?

   A: Not really, although in general, as a Buddhist, my daily meditation

involves preparation for death. Death by natural causes, I'm fully prepared

for.  If sudden death comes, that is tragic -- from the viewpoint of

practitioners.

   Q: In September, the Palestinians accepted a compromise for regional

autonomy. If the Chinese offered such a deal, would you accept?

   A: Actually, for the past 14 years, my basic position has been very

similar.  There is one difference: in the Palestinian case, virtually every

government viewed the Territories as occupied and showed concern. In the

Tibetan case only the U.S. Congress and some legal experts consider Tibet an

occupied land with the right of self-determination.

   Q: What was your feeling when you watched the recent signing of the

Middle East peace agreement?

   A: It's a great achievement. This issue is just one year older than the

Tibetan issue. Our problem started in 1949, theirs in 1948. In those years,

a lot of hatred developed. Imagine: Palestinians were taught to hate from

childhood. That was seen as good for the national interest. In fact, it was

rather negative; a lot of violence took place. Now, both sides came to an

agreement in the spirit of reconciliation, in the spirit of nonviolence.

This is wonderful.

   Q: Are there any signs that the Chinese might accept a compromise?

   A: [Quickly] No.

   Q: You once wrote that the Chinese want to rule the world. Do you still

think so?

   A: I didn't mean it that way. The remark was related more to the Marxist

world intention, rather than Chinese national historical expansionism.

   Q: Do you think that still is the case?

   A: It's changed, I think. That kind of spirit . . . perhaps in the

1960's, with the Cultural Revolution, it was there. On the Soviet side,

Khrushchev realized around 1956 that that kind of goal was not realistic. By

the end of the Cultural Revolution, in the 1970's, the Chinese realized that

it was out of the question. Now I think the issue is Chinese nationalist

historic chauvinism. To them, all other people are barbarians.

   Q: Including you?

   A: Oh, certainly! Of course! They are a proud nation. With Marxism gone,

the strategy is to reach the economic levels of Western countries. They

consider themselves a champion of the third world, particularly after the

Soviet Union collapsed. They see Russia as having become a part of the West.

So what you have is the most populous nation, the worst kind of totalitarian

system, the rule of terror -- with nuclear weapons and with an ideology that

force is the ultimate source of power. Their economy was poor, but now it is

improving -- without changing those other things. Time magazine has called

them "the super-power of the next century."

   Q: Does that scare you?

   A: We already lost our country. But I'm concerned about the world! The

world community has the moral responsibility to see democracy in China. Now,

how to bring it about? The Chinese intellectuals and the students, they are

already a strong political force, and very essential. The world community

must give every encouragement to that force. We should not indulge any act

which discourages them.

   Q: Did you think at the time of the Tiananmen Square uprising that the

democracy movement would succeed?

   A: Yes. Actually, the events of the 4th of June shocked me. I did not

expect them to fire on their own people.

   Q: But if the Chinese Communists have been as ruthless against Tibetans

as you charge, why not against pro-democracy demonstrators?

   A: Because it was their own people! How could they shoot them? During the

Cultural Revolution, this was understandable. Tiananmen Square proved that a

regime that would have no hesitation to shoot their own people, such a

regime. .  . . There should be no doubt about their attitude towards other

nationalities.

   Q: Given that not-so-optimistic assessment, what possible scenarios for

China and Tibet do you see?

   A: Basically, the Chinese Communist regime, it's only a matter of time:

it will change. Worldwide today, there is a growth of freedom and democracy.

And the democratic movement, inside and outside China, is still very active.

Once the Chinese are willing to listen to others' problems, the Tibetans

will not be against the Chinese nation. My approach is in the spirit of

reconciliation.  Certainly we can have an agreement.

   In the meantime, the international community must support Tibet and put

pressure on China. Without that, our own approach, according to the last 14

years of experience, has no hope of response.

   Q: In closing, I read somewhere that you are predicting that the 21st

century, unlike the 20th, is to be a century of peace and justice. Why?

   A: Because I believe that in the 20th century, humanity has learned from

many, many experiences. Some positive, and many negative. What misery, what

destruction! The greatest number of human beings were killed in the two

world wars of this century. But human nature is such that when we face a

tremendous critical situation, the human mind can wake up and find some

other alternative. That is a human capacity.

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