Family Law live chat for September 12, 1995
Subject: Family Law Chat 09/12/95
Author: Rich Dunn
Uploaded By: Rich Dunn
Date: 9/14/1995
File: 950912FL.LOG (53900 bytes)
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Tuesday night Family Law live chat for September 12, 1995.
Participants:
BusterMill
CMich1995
CatLawyer1
GeneDSki
JoniH
KLB26404
MERRIEM
RIsaacs684
Rich Dunn
Sailormom
SusnCamron
OnlineHost
OnlineHost You are now in room "family law".
OnlineHost
RIsaacs684 hello all
CMich1995 Hello Rich
Rich Dunn Hi, y'all.
CMich1995 Where do you practice?
RIsaacs684 Carbondale,Il
Rich Dunn We don't have a designated moderator or topic tonight.
Rich Dunn Hopefully a natural leader will emerge.
Rich Dunn Yeah SIU.
GeneDSki or an unnatural leader
RIsaacs684 how many usually check in?
Rich Dunn See Mr. Prez?
CMich1995 Only my second time -- don't know anything about format
RIsaacs684 I saw him he didnt appreciate mysign though
Rich Dunn Hmmm. About 20 or so total (people come in and out).
Rich Dunn Oh? Not "We Love You Bill?"
RIsaacs684 no it said abortion kills children
Rich Dunn Oh. Well I imagine a lot of people didn't appreciate your sign.
RIsaacs684 I do a lot of defense work for Operation Rescue
CMich1995 Where RIsaacs?
Rich Dunn To each his own.
RIsaacs684 whereever there is a need
CMich1995 Anyone from Kentucky?
RIsaacs684 My fathers rights work is just another way to protect children
CMich1995 Define Fathers' Rights' Work
GeneDSki RI...in an OW situation, what do you think is a fair time for
"Dad" to come forward
GeneDSki to assert some rights
CMich1995 OW -- out of wedlock?
GeneDSki yes
RIsaacs684 i represent fathers in custody/visitation cases
CMich1995 No mothers?
GeneDSki so he either is/was married or has obtained Order of Filiation
already?
RIsaacs684 I have a section on unwed fathers rights in my book
SusnCamron Hello!
CMich1995 Hello Susn
Sailormom hello
GeneDSki hi sus
RIsaacs684 unwed fathers have same rights and responsibilities as wed
SusnCamron Hi Ron. Glad to see you found us.
RIsaacs684 hi sus
CMich1995 Hi Sailor
GeneDSki Not in NY....You can't get $$$$ unless declared and he has to get
some standing
SusnCamron Wow! How many states still have the concept of illegitimacy? It's
been gone in CA a long time.
RIsaacs684 US Supreme ct in Stanley v Illinois says child of unweds has
same right to both parents
GeneDSki Read on to the other cases where he has to do something
Sailormom got booted! - evening all
SusnCamron CA has a very new case in which dad had to do something as soon as
he knew about the PREGNANCY to
SusnCamron object to an adoption. The fact that he changed his mind right
after the birth didn't help him.
RIsaacs684 In Illinois there is absolutely no difference whether you are
illegitmate or not
CMich1995 In WI, paternity adjudications routinely award sole custody to
Mom; divorce routinely
CMich1995 joint custody
SusnCamron But if the child is not adopted, marriage or no marriage makes no
difference.
RIsaacs684 legal theory i s CHILDS right to both parents and support of both
parents
GeneDSki In New York, he practically has a "duty to inquire" nine months
after the deed
RIsaacs684 NY law should be challanged
SusnCamron Gene, is this in regard to objecting to adoption, or other rights
also?
MrMsSlgr MsSlgr has entered the room
GeneDSki Mostly adoption situations....Court of Apps in NY (our highest)
has rules and I doubt USSC
GeneDSki will do anything
SusnCamron Hi! MsSlgr. Is that what you want to be called?
MrMsSlgr It will do
GeneDSki excuse me "ruled"
RIsaacs684 Big difference tween requiring action to prevent adoption and
terminating a parents rights
GeneDSki We don't have to terminate everyone. We have "consent""notice" and
"no rights" fathers
GeneDSki on OW situations
Sailormom Gene, please explain consent notice & no rights dads
SusnCamron What a concept! please explain further.
RIsaacs684 Sounds like you need someone to fight for fathers rights in NY!
SusnCamron Do you have the Uniform Parentage Act in NY?
GeneDSki Briefly, Notice fathers have right to notice of the hearing but
can be heard only as to best
GeneDSki interests, No rights Dads don't even have right to notice...they
cannot interfere.
SusnCamron "Notice fathers" would be what we would call "alleged fathers" in
CA.
SusnCamron How does one become a No rights dad?
GeneDSki it all depends on support and/or level of involvement and how fast
you did it
Sailormom TGx introduced "presumed dada" and try to get them to sign birth
certificate
GeneDSki Make the baby and do nothing
Sailormom A lot of mothers would like for a one nighter to not be able to
challenge for visits
SusnCamron But once paternity is extablished & they have a support order, do
their rights change?
GeneDSki yes
RIsaacs684 what if father never knew of pregnancy what category is he?
GeneDSki Tough luck category....if adopted
RIsaacs684 what about for custoody or visitation
GeneDSki If he get Paternity order, he has rights
GeneDSki but they are not absolute
SusnCamron Dinner time. I've got to go.
CMich1995 bye
Sailormom Night
RIsaacs684 bbye
CMich1995 What do you mean not absolute?
Sailormom RIsaacs - what book did you write?
GeneDSki fact that he may not have asserted right away may put him in a
best interests quandry
RIsaacs684 Multistate Guide to Fathers rights available at
http://www.intrnet.net/~risaacs/index.html
BusterMill hi im a totally burnt out r.e. atty who wants to enter fam law
any suggestions?
Sailormom How does that go against best interest being both parents?
RIsaacs684 Buster get my book
Sailormom Buster - you do like to live dangerously
CMich1995 Buster -- burnt out? stay in r.e.
Sailormom where do you practice Bister?
RIsaacs684 Sailormom I maximize time with both parents that is litigation
goal
GeneDSki Custodial parent is better off legally..as you know
BusterMill whats the book and yes i would like to live dangerously i
practice in L>I> N>Y>
CMich1995 Gene - I have problems sympathizing with an absent father who
suddenly shows up and
CMich1995 wants primary placement
Sailormom Agree CM
BusterMill re is ok for $ but totally boring
RIsaacs684 Buster call 1 800 706 9490 tomorrow for book info it is very
comprehensive guide
GeneDSki That is why the state of the law is as it is
Sailormom Dpwn here we have dads who threaten to get visitation as a way to
avoid c/s
CMich1995 Well Buster, family law is NOT boring
Ti123 does anyone know penna law regarding spousal support ?
BusterMill ok ill call someone told me it was rewarding to become a law
guardian
CMich1995 Down where? Sorry Ti
RIsaacs684 thats a common tactic but most of my cases are visitation denial
cases
Sailormom TX
CMich1995 So if you have the right to spend time with your child -- your
support lessons? How much
CMich1995 time?
Sailormom No. They use the threat to make mom not take them to court to
obtain c/s
RIsaacs684 if you have child 50% of time you are bearing 50% of expense so
no child support or reduced
Sailormom Where is that RI?
CMich1995 agreed RI
Sailormom Just because you have possession of kid 50% doesn
RIsaacs684 I have had several cases decided that way here in Illinois
Sailormom Just because you have possession of kid 50% doesn
Sailormom t mrdoesn't mean you pay 50% of cost of kid
CMich1995 WI -- rule is child support and visitation are mutually exclusive
-- however threats still
CMich1995 work
Ti123 can someone help me with a question regarding penna law spousel
support
Sailormom Same here
CMich1995 No Ti
Sailormom I have only seen one PA spousal supporet and it was real high
Ti123 thank you
RIsaacs684 No but both parents have equal duty to support child not just
father
GeneDSki don't know PA law
Ti123 thank you
CMich1995 Problem RI is that fathers frequently make significantly more
money than mothers
Sailormom TX just got spousal support (very limited ) on 9-1-95
Ti123 does anyone know where i can get info on line
Sailormom Try the Stste Law - PA BBS
CMich1995 Sorry, Ti -- new to this
RIsaacs684 then support can be proportionalized
Ti123 thank you
CMich1995 Should be -- in my experience it isn't
Ti123 goodbye
Sailormom Night
BusterMill RIsaac im a female atty do you think i can fight effectively
for fathers rights
CMich1995 bye --
BusterMill also im well into my thirties i wonder how hard it will be to
switch
RIsaacs684 My wife is a very successful fathers rights attorney
Sailormom Buster - I started in fam law well into my 40"s as new atty - love
it. Keep sense pf humor
RIsaacs684 gotta go child crying bye
BusterMill thats all encouraging thanks
Sailormom Nigiht RI
CMich1995 bye RI
GeneDSki Buster, where in LI...Nass or Suff
BusterMill nass
GeneDSki Are you planning to do JD's, PINS, Abuse/Neglect, etc in Fam Ct???
Sailormom Gene - NY has it's own language--JD? PINS?
BusterMill hopefully abuse neglect but dont know where to start
GeneDSki Juvenile Delinquents, Persons in Need of Supervision(Incorrible,
pain in the asses)
Sailormom LOL
BusterMill all my clients are buying houses or buildings noone is abused
BusterMill where can i get referals even pro bono
GeneDSki Read FC Act Art 10 with Commentaries, read Ct Apps and AD cases,
trial advocacy course
CMich1995 Gene -- how is the family law client contract mandated by NY
working out?
BusterMill do all of you talk here on tuesdays
CMich1995 Buster -- in Wisconsin State Bar has a referral service
Sailormom yes - each Tues
GeneDSki I'm not sure what you mean.....
BusterMill thanksgene and everyone
Sailormom It's a new group so we are still feeling our way. I;ve enjoyed it
CMich1995 I am referring to the language the NY Court of Appeals (I think)
mandated be included in
CMich1995 all client/attorney contracts for family law
BusterMill bye for now
Sailormom Bye Buster
CMich1995 Bye Buster -- see you next Tues?
Sailormom Do tell CM
GeneDSki I'm not familiar with it since I deal exclusively with
governmental aspects of CA/N
CMich1995 It was big news in Wisconsin --- talk about doing the same here --
no one else familiar?
Sailormom No, please share
Sailormom Hi JoniH
JoniH Hi, FL Pros.
JoniH What's up?
CMich1995 Hi, Joni -- you know about the NY Fee contracts for Family Law --
brought subject up,
CMich1995 but can't remember all details
GeneDSki It sounds like I should know about it though...Sometimes law
drifts down slow fr, on high
JoniH I saw it at a CLE about a hr ago. I kind of liked it, but a lot
of people when nuts!
CMich1995 Required complete disclosure of fees -- notification of all client
rights
JoniH Ooops -- about a YR ago not an HR.
Sailormom We do hourly billing here
CMich1995 Not unit?
JoniH I may be able to track down a copy if you want one.
Sailormom No, how do you do unit?
CMich1995 I have one at the office -- just wondering if the NY attorneys
liked it
JoniH We mostly do hourly rate, with some documents fees and some flat
fee.
CMich1995 Unit -- so much time for each task
Sailormom Like a petition for divorce = Xunits?
JoniH Has anyone heard of the Kirby trial from NC a couple months ago.
Atty in jail for billing
JoniH problems. He had an hourly rate but also used some unit billing.
Sailormom No, share!!
JoniH Long trial. Most of the evidence sounded more like a testimonial
to him. But the
GeneDSki No
JoniH Resolution trust company (FEDS) thought that the retainer
agreement and letter he sent to
JoniH clients was not clear and that he had gouged them. In fact, he
did often bill 30-50 hours i
JoniH in a given day, using the minimum unit billoing.
JoniH Anyway, the jury hung and eventually he plead to obstructing the
work of a federal agency
JoniH the judge threw the book at him and he is doing active time!
JoniH Has everyone in NC pretty nervous!
GeneDSki Maybe he used data compression on his computer
CMich1995 Joni -- he told clients he was using hourly -- but was using unit
Sailormom Can imagine. Do you all use written contracts?
CMich1995 Absolutely
JoniH He sort of told them that he was using hourly but with a minimum
unit per activity.
Sailormom We have new law that on the first pleading each atty files on a
case the client has to sign
CMich1995 Then there was another similar case -- attorney was charged with
RICO violations and
Sailormom statement saying that they are aware of mediation and will try it
first!
JoniH So there would be a 1/10 of a hour for anything he did -- like
sent the same letter to a doz
JoniH dozen people on a case would be 12 1/10s.
CMich1995 he plead --- articles all said that if he had used unit billing
and clearly explained to
CMich1995 clients no problem
JoniH Our retainer agreement is about five pages long and very detailed.
We do charge a
JoniH document fee for computer drafting but spell it out in the
agreement. We had the Bar
JoniH review our agreement when this trial was going on and they said it
was clear enough.
JoniH Do you charge for waiting time?
Sailormom Here our big problem is charging for time spent waiting in court
CMich1995 Yes, but I do nothing else during that time
Sailormom Have to. Some days would make no money. It's a mess so tryto set
more than 1 hearing
Sailormom and divide time etc between clients
Rich Dunn Seems a shame to have to waste your time and the client's money.
JoniH We try not to bill for waiting time and are usually lucky enough
to have several things goin
Sailormom How much mediation are you all doing in divorce and custody?
JoniH so can bill for actual time. It is a bad problem though.
Sometimes, you just have to.
JoniH We have compulsory mediation for all custoday issues, but nothing
else.
CMich1995 Who does the compulsory mediation?
JoniH Some limited attempts at using arbitration for property issues.
Little enthusiasm so far.
JoniH The court has mediators that do the custody stuff.
CMich1995 Ours too
Sailormom Do you have to pay them?
JoniH We can't use anything at all from the mediation and no attorneys
allowed!
CMich1995 Only if an agreement is reached
JoniH We don't have to pay the mediators for custody.
CMich1995 Mediation is completely confidential as well.
Sailormom Wow! Here attys go and costs are 1000-2000 per day
CMich1995 Attorneys don't pay, clients do -- billed directly
GeneDSki Nice talking to you....Bye
CMich1995 Bye Gene
Sailormom Bye Gene
CMich1995 Here it is $100 per party usually
Sailormom If no settlement, can't use any of it in trial
CMich1995 Sailor -- and is it mandatory?
JoniH I am a great supporter of mediation in custody matters. How about
you guys?
Sailormom Practically since 9-1. Really runs costs up
CMich1995 Absolutely -- problem here is that court social workers are
overworked -- not enough time
CMich1995 to do effective job
Sailormom I like mediation in custody as long as both parties have nearly
equal strength
JoniH Oh, yes. Need to be on even footing. In fact, although
compulsory, we can move to opt out
JoniH if there is any domestic violence.
Sailormom What do you do in one party reneges (sp?) on agreement
JoniH Once the "parenting agreement" is signed by the parties, the Judge
enters it as an Order
JoniH so we can enforce through contempt.
CMich1995 Our social workers don't do any drafting -- so an attorney has to
do it and sometimes
CMich1995 they do renege (sp?)
Sailormom Here a party can withdraw ok until judgew signs order - lots do
JoniH That's true here too, but the mediators draft, we approve, clients
sign, and Judge enters al
JoniH within a couple of days.
Sailormom Some case law that if file written agreement under a Rule 11 - can
enforce prop issues as
Sailormom contract- but no go for c/s and custody
JoniH What is your rule 11 -- ours is sanctions for frivolous claims.
Sailormom that's our rule 13. I think fed rule 13 is the same as rule 11 -
agmt in writing, signed & f
Sailormom filed even if not the full lelgalese document
JoniH Do many people try to represent themselves in your area?
CMich1995 Not a lot, but some
Sailormom in divorce? no courts really tough on pro se
CMich1995 Joni -- are you referring to a totally pro se divorce, or just one
party?
Sailormom But some pro se do better than $60 want ad lawyers
JoniH Our Judges are really rude to pro se folks too -- except a little
better on domestic violenc
JoniH we have a pretty good expedited system for domestic violence
protective orders.
CMich1995 Our judges bend over backward to be fair -- can't say that they
are more rude to pro se
CMich1995 than to lawyers
Sailormom that's good to hear - here we just get in line
JoniH At the return hearing on pro se DV claims, the Judges do try to
scare them into getting atty
Sailormom US 5th circuit has case saying judges should cut slack to pro se
JoniH same here -- and they do, they are just sort of rude about it
quite often.
JoniH Say, has Risaacs been here at all tonight?
CMich1995 Yes, earlier
Sailormom Did you see OJ asked that jurors be un-sequesatered today!!!
CMich1995 I'll bet he did
JoniH Rats, I wish I had been here. He posts a lot in the fathers
rights message board.
Sailormom Jdg told Marcia that was a "no-brainer"
KLB26404 hello all
CMich1995 Hi KLB
Sailormom Hi KLB
JoniH Hi.
Sailormom Some idiot tried to blow up an IRS bldg today in Austin - has good
taste
JoniH Small world KLB -- I just sent you an E-mail earlier today about
being a family law atty.
JoniH How did they catch that bomber?
KLB26404 I haven't read it yet Joni, I am late and rushed to join this
group. Will check later.
Sailormom He was caught putting the explosives in bldg
Sailormom Held without bail
JoniH Not a rocket scientist, eh?
Sailormom Doesn't look like it on TV
JoniH Thank GOD!
Sailormom True
JoniH Do you know his background? Another militia member? Angry tax
payer? Both?
Sailormom Don't know yet. Was on the news as I am typing
KLB26404 Ethics question. Attorney represents husband in a law firm of 40
attorneys; now gets
CMich1995 Suspect he is not a happy taxpayer :)
Sailormom Joni - did you ever make contact with my client?
JoniH I sent an E-mail, but haven't heard from him.
CMich1995 KLB???
KLB26404 client who is wife of attorney who is in same law firm. Conflict?
KLB26404 Attorney for other side files motion to get attorney off of case
JoniH Wife of an attorney in the same law firm?
KLB26404 right
JoniH I would think it would be a conflict.
KLB26404 Why?
CMich1995 Why Joni?
JoniH Not to mention a real downer at the firm barbeques!
KLB26404 That too
Sailormom Same atty representing husband and later wife?
JoniH Well, I guess I thought that one atty in the firm was the same as
all others so essentially
JoniH the attorney would be representing his own wife against himself.
JoniH Maybe I am not understanding the situation though.
KLB26404 Say I am the attorney: I represent Mr. B who is one of 40
attorneys in a firm. three years
KLB26404 later I get
CMich1995 Representation of Mr. is over?
KLB26404 Mrs x who's husband, Mr. X is a partner of Mr. B. Representation
of Mr. B is over
JoniH OH!! The attorney is not in Your firm?
CMich1995 I can't see a problem here
Sailormom No conflict - done all the time
JoniH In that case I don't see a conflict.
KLB26404 What if Mr. B has told me the firm has a Swiss bank account hiding
assets from the IRS
Sailormom Gives Mrs X atty a better understanding of how the firm works
that's all
KLB26404 Don't I have a conflict between Mr. B and representing Ms. X
JoniH Hmmm -- I guess there could be a problem if you got info from B
that would prejudice X
Sailormom That's a confidential matter and you can't break that confidence
JoniH There - I have weighed in firmly on all sides of this question!
Sailormom If you use your logic - you could only represent one atty in that
firm
KLB26404 Thanks Joni!
JoniH Don't mention it.
KLB26404 Well, I think the attorney trying to remove me from the case has a
burden to show there is a
KLB26404 conflict.
KLB26404 here's another one. What if my firm is a large firm and
represents many business clients.
JoniH I agree. Do you in general like the attys in the 40 person firm?
Ethical bunch?
Sailormom Having been wed to a 650 atty firm partner I can tell you not all
attys in firm know ehat
Sailormom is going on in firm
JoniH 650 member firm!!!! What a nightmare! Give me my little 2 person
shop any day.
KLB26404 One of those clients is a closely held corp which the firm has
represented for years. Now
KLB26404 the majority stock holder is in a divorce. The corp is clearly a
marital asset. Can I
Sailormom He hated it but the $$$ was too good - I am not divorced , solo
and happoily poor
KLB26404 represent the majority stock holder.
CMich1995 I don't think so
JoniH Boy, I think I would decline that one.
KLB26404 I don't think so either....but it happens all of the time.
Sailormom You can represent the stockholder but not the non-stockholder
JoniH Doesn't anyone object?
KLB26404 But the interests of the corp may not be the same as the majority
stockholder in a divorce
KLB26404 situation.
CMich1995 Think there is case law about not representing officers of
corporations in similar situation
JoniH S'mom, I don't think you could represent either in that situation
-- isn't the primary clien
JoniH client the business entity?
CMich1995 so wouldn't that apply?
Sailormom If the corp is not a paprty to the suit the only thing the ct can
award is the right to reci
Sailormom receive profits - can not give mgme to non-stockholder
KLB26404 but majority stockhold may use corp to hide assets which may or
may not be in best interests
JoniH Could award the stock to the non-shareholder which could have
impact on votes.
CMich1995 Exactly Joni
KLB26404 of corp.
KLB26404 Seems like a conflict to me; more than first example.
Sailormom If the corp lets a stockholder hids assets it has a big problem
JoniH And you wouldn't want to be on both sides of that big problem.
Sailormom In that case I agree = conflicxt. But if only doing property
settlement no problem
CMich1995 Do your states have an ethics hotline where you can ask these
questions?
Sailormom We do
JoniH Get this --- our state bar president is the ethics czar. We call
there. The immediate past
JoniH was disbarred for unethical behavior.
KLB26404 Yes... Michigan. But the answer has to do mostly with insurance
liability.
JoniH Seems he was paying for his daughter's law school from bar dues!!!!
Sailormom We have a big dept and they are really helpful
KLB26404 What state Joni?
JoniH We were all a little bit pissed.
JoniH NC
Sailormom Do you all have mandatory bars?
JoniH actually -- I shouldn't call him president -- he was paid, sort of
an executive director.
CMich1995 No mandatory Bar in Wisconsin -- think it is the only state
KLB26404 Well maybe his daughter was going to law school. Wouldn't that
count?
JoniH ours is mandatory.
KLB26404 Mich is manditory.
CMich1995 Sorry tired -- we do have a mandatory bar -- tried to get rid of
it a couple of years ago
Sailormom We have 60,000 attys now so it is a BIG business
JoniH I think he also paid things like his home utility bill and other
personal stuff.
CMich1995 What are your dues?
KLB26404 Interesting thing has happened since the Keller( is that right)
decision. Bar has much less
KLB26404 power now.
Sailormom We threw our rascals out when they used bar $ to buy booze
JoniH 60,000! We have 22,000, I believe. We pay 125.00/yr.
CMich1995 Have to go -- maybe next week??!!
JoniH S'mom -- yours were just confused. Bar money obviously,
definitionally is intended for booz
Sailormom My dues are now $230/ yr. Fo up depending on length of practice.
Also have $200/yr occu
Sailormom pation tax
JoniH See you later CM
KLB26404 Bye CMich Next week is good
Sailormom Bye CM
KLB26404 What is an occupation tax?
JoniH Rich must be here only as a ghost presence today, huh?
Sailormom Another way to hit professional. For the privilege of having a
license
Sailormom Rich hasn't said anything all night - must oinly be logging
KLB26404 We havesmall business tax. Maybe the same thing.
JoniH We have a $50/yr "privilege" tax -- for the honor of being in
business in NC
Sailormom We lose license if either one isn't paid
KLB26404 Got to go. Talk to everyone Thursday.
JoniH By KLB
Sailormom See you Thurs - if I am still alive - have 5th day of awful trial
- custody
KLB26404 The worst! Good luck.
JoniH 5th day -- is that typical?
Sailormom Generally for a custody case. Hear a 6 week case is starting next
week.
JoniH The expected length of custody trials really varies county to
county in NC
JoniH In some counties, week or weeks are not uncommon. Here it is a
big deal to go 3 days.
Sailormom Today I won on 2 motions to strike evidentiary facts from
pleadings, plus atty fees, happy
JoniH The Judges in my county like to move them right along.
JoniH Good work!
JoniH Are your Judges pretty good on awarding atty fees?
Sailormom We are nopt supposed to put "facts" in fam pleadings - too
inflammatory
JoniH We used to have an insane judge who would cut off your case with a
comment like ---
Sailormom Judges vary a lot - often surprised - both ways
JoniH :Okay, I've heard enough from the momma -- let me hear from daddy."
JoniH And you look out at your 6 other witnesses, sigh heavily, and sit
down.
Sailormom Usually they call atty to bench and say I've heard enuf - move
along
JoniH Eventually he was "asked" to retire.
Sailormom We have 7 out of 9 new fam judges so we are all learning - some
curves bigger than others
JoniH We have a wild criminal trial going on in Raleigh this week. A
woman judge called a woman
JoniH atty into chambers, apparently grabbed her blouse collar and said
she was dressed inappropra
JoniH inappropriately. The atty filed assault charges!
Sailormom Good for the atty
JoniH She was found guilty at first trial, appealed, and now having a
jury trial in Superior Court
JoniH Judge is representing herself -- said couldn't afford the 20,000
atty fees.
JoniH I was proud of the atty, too.
Sailormom $20K for a misdemeanor???
JoniH That was exactly my reaction.
Sailormom down here the judge would take out of campaign funds
JoniH No one I know would charge that. So I wonder if the Judge was
lying or if no one wanted to
JoniH represent her so were quoting ridiculous fees.
Sailormom how is she generally?
JoniH I don't know. It is several counties away so I have not been
before her at all.
JoniH We have a seminar on Friday and some Raliehg attys will be there,
so I'm sure we will hear.
Sailormom Be sure to let us know the "dirt"
JoniH Absolutely.
JoniH Do you remember the client that I thought should back off on
primary custody a few weeks ago
Sailormom In one county I go to we have 9 judges and 9 associate judges -
1/2 women - real change
Sailormom Yes, what happened?
JoniH They settled!!!!!
JoniH Best interests of child finally penetrated.
Sailormom Was it a good settlement?
Rich Dunn What's the judge's name, Joni? I'd like to fish for a news story
about the case.
JoniH We talked for about three hours before my client would accept it.
Yes, I think it was very
Sailormom Did we wake you up with our LOUD talking Rich?
Rich Dunn I could post it on the NC board.
JoniH good. I think the Judge's name is RENFRO. I have just heard it
so far, not read it.
Sailormom Congratulations - It must feel good to see kid put first
Rich Dunn I *was* fading.
JoniH I'll let you know for sure though.
Rich Dunn But now I'm watching Nova with one eye, youz guys with the other.
Sailormom We have an El Paso judge who told mom she must speak English to
kid at home - speaking
Sailormom Spanish was abuse!! Lots of press on this one
Rich Dunn Saw that one.
JoniH I bet! Phil Grahm probably loved it.
Rich Dunn The good news is that it was news.
Sailormom He is calling for the judge to resign
Sailormom Gramm really follows the wind on some things
JoniH No kidding? I thought he would take an English is our language so
speak it position.
Sailormom No, Dole started that one so he has to be first amendment
JoniH Isn't politics fun?
Rich Dunn Gramm is actually from Georgia. That's not a TX drawl.
Sailormom Yeah - but don't you have Strom?
Rich Dunn You see Dole came out for George Washington and Paul Revere?
Sailormom What a guy!
Rich Dunn He really tackles the tough issues head on.
JoniH Did Risaacs participate much? I would love to get him in a
discussion about visitation.
Sailormom Isaaacs contributed a lot - he left just as you came
JoniH Too bad.
JoniH Maybe I'll catch him next week.
Sailormom He told us how to get his book on dad's rights
JoniH He does have a slightly commercial component to his on-line
presence.
JoniH But he is interesting.
Sailormom I did pick up on how much state law varies for unwed dad's
Rich Dunn Said he held up a sign saying "Abortion Kills Children" when
Clinton spoke at SIU.
Sailormom Egads!!! We would really tangle
JoniH Yep -- I think he would make for lively conversation.
Rich Dunn I'll have to add the Queensbury Rules to the L.I.N. guidelines.
JoniH LOL
Sailormom ????????????????/
Rich Dunn Queensbury Rules <-- the rules of boxing.
Sailormom Cat - how is your leg????
CatLawyer1 My goodness -- my favorite people are still here!
JoniH Hi, Cat
Rich Dunn And me, too.
CatLawyer1 Oh Smom -- I wish I could say "better" but it's driving me
absolutely NUTS.
JoniH Are you back at work?
Sailormom Itcvhing in the cast?? that's itching
CatLawyer1 Hi Joni.
Rich Dunn She wasn't nuts before, see?
Sailormom No, Rich, she was only after nuts
CatLawyer1 No, no itching -- just pain and swelling. Working doesn't help.
I forget to keep it up.
Sailormom Are you sleeping on 2-3 pillows under leg?
CatLawyer1 I felt like I was going to lose it this weekend -- all cooped up
and not able to get out.
JoniH Drugs?
Sailormom To keep sheets clean, put leg in pillowcase, then dirt goes inside
case
CatLawyer1 Two pillows under the leg -- and very uncomfortable. Taking drugs
with codeine at night.
Rich Dunn Pain. Swelling. Now that *living*.
CatLawyer1 Last night didn't knock me out like they usually do.
JoniH And no one to sue over the injury. That's so sad.
Sailormom Try some relaxation exercises 20" after you taqke codeine
CatLawyer1 Unless I want to sue myself for my own stupidity.
Sailormom No -- not enuf assets to go after
Rich Dunn CatLawyer1 v. CatLawyer1
Rich Dunn Black letter law on stupidity.
CatLawyer1 I just start to relax and feel sleep coming on and then my toes
start to tingle.
JoniH How about those hiking companions? Negligently allowing you to
walk unassisted?
Sailormom She didn't wear hiking boots
CatLawyer1 My foot has been really HOT lately too - arggggghhhhhh...
Sailormom Cat - call your doctor!!
CatLawyer1 Yeah, but that hiking companion also CARRIED me out of there!
Rich Dunn Don't put it up on the stove like that.
JoniH That would mitigate damages.
CatLawyer1 LOL, Rich. I belong to a stupid HMO -- they are no help at all.
Rich Dunn No help at all, eh. A lot like me I guess.
Sailormom Cat - describe "hot", red streaks anywhere?
CatLawyer1 At least my boss came back today -- for a day (off again for
another week).
Rich Dunn Good boss. Stays away.
Rich Dunn Lots of people would like a boss like that.
Sailormom Cat - answer my questions!
CatLawyer1 It cools down after I keep it up for an hour or so. Bruising
continues to spread (it's just
CatLawyer1 below my toes now -- weird)
Rich Dunn Snap out of it, Cat. ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sailormom That means there is still some bleeding going on. You should have
yel.low "bruises" by now
Rich Dunn (questions?)
CatLawyer1 I can't see it, but a friend said she sees yellow below that --
JoniH do you get the feeling we are worrying about you?
JoniH you're right.
CatLawyer1 ::sniff:: nice to be worried about ....
Sailormom Are your toes the same temperature as above the cast?
Rich Dunn :::purr:::
CatLawyer1 Same temperature as the air above the cast?
Rich Dunn Mom, you're an RN, aren't you?
Sailormom Yes Rich and an orthopedic specialist
Sailormom No - touch each set of toes - is the temp the same?
CatLawyer1 They cool off when I keep it elevated long enough -- get good and
hot when I've had it down
CatLawyer1 You mean between my left and right foot?
Sailormom yes
CatLawyer1 Not necessarily -- my right foot is up and my left foot is not.
Rich Dunn The nurse is [ IN ]
Sailormom OK - look at the color of your toes - both feet - same?, then the
temp
CatLawyer1 In the a.m., the toes on my casted leg are ruddy in color in
comparison to my usual pasty
CatLawyer1 white coloring.
Sailormom can you put your pinky underneath your case at toes and at knee?
CatLawyer1 Right now, my right foot is colder than my left, but I think it's
because it's elevated.
CatLawyer1 Yes.
Sailormom Which foot is hurt?
CatLawyer1 I feel like I can wiggle around in it when I keep it elevated for
awhie.
CatLawyer1 My right one.
Rich Dunn You *sure*?
CatLawyer1 The drugs aren't *that* good, Rich.
Sailormom Wiggling is good. You can put a sock on right foot to keep toes
warm. Watch the circulation
Sailormom carefully. If your leg is down too long it will cut off
circulation to fracture and delay he
Sailormom the healing.
CatLawyer1 I just get paranoid -- when I keep it elevated, toes get tingly
and I wake up continually to
CatLawyer1 check my circulation.
Sailormom Try wiggling the toes, put sock on and leg into pillowcase
CatLawyer1 That must be why I was so uncomfortable last night -- my foot was
down most of the day
CatLawyer1 while I was at work --
JoniH Have you ever had a cast on before?
CatLawyer1 Long day too -- 7 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. with no lunch break. No rest
for the gimpy.
Sailormom That's is probably right. Gradually the swelling should go down.
Eventually the cast should
Sailormom feel loose
CatLawyer1 Never had a cast before, no.
Sailormom I can tell - you sure are fighting it!!
JoniH I had a leg cast once and when it was cut off, my whole leg
floated into the air.
JoniH It was a very weird sensation.
Sailormom And I bet you had to shave!!! LOL
CatLawyer1 I wish I could find a way to be comfortable with it elevated at
work, but it's impossible
CatLawyer1 with the way the damn PC is set up.
JoniH I guess because I was used to the additional weight.
CatLawyer1 This fiberglass material is really wild.
Sailormom What color do you hasve?
CatLawyer1 Purple!! No one can write on it --
JoniH ooooooh -- pretty.
Sailormom Great!!! Will doc let you get it wet?
CatLawyer1 Smom -- what should they be looking for next week when they xray
it?
Rich Dunn Don't they have to make reasonable accomodations? Like punching a
hold in the wall nextto
Rich Dunn computer?
JoniH I still have my cast, replete with the signatures of all the high
school pals.
Rich Dunn nextto?
Rich Dunn next to the
CatLawyer1 I've got a cast protector -- looks like a gigantic condom and
works like a charm.
JoniH Safe socks.
Rich Dunn Gigantic condom? I've got lots of those.
Sailormom good - we used to use trash bags in the dark ages
Sailormom They will x-ray looking for position and begining calcification
Rich Dunn Work like a charm.
CatLawyer1 Any particular position my foot should be in for the best healing
(in the cast)?
Sailormom Depends on exactly where the fx is located. The cast is supposed
to hold in in correct posit
CatLawyer1 When can they tell if I'm ready for a walking cast? Will it
depend on my level of pain?
Sailormom position. When cast too lose doc should put on new tighter one
Sailormom Not pain - will be based on x-ray healing
CatLawyer1 The xrays seem such an archaic way to tell the break. I had three
different sets of xrays
CatLawyer1 in the first week and they all looked slightly different --
depending on who did them!
Sailormom But they are still good. Walkingcast will be partial at first
CatLawyer1 Partial? Is that the "touch down" cast they talk about? What
does that mean?
Sailormom Make doc show you x-rays and show you fx and healing etc
Sailormom Sounds like it. Means you only put part of your weight on it at
first, gradually to full wei
CatLawyer1 Should my ankle region feel hot? I know that it did when they
removed the splint before
Sailormom weight
CatLawyer1 they put the cast on. Is that just the bleeding/healing going on ?
CatLawyer1 Still feels pretty warm -- ice helps sometimes.
Sailormom Basically yea, but I am concerned that you still have NEW
bruising/bleeding under the skin.
CatLawyer1 Would it be wise for me to go in and have the oncall ortho take a
look at it tomorrow?
Sailormom Too much swelling with bruising can lead to problems - please
watch carefully.
Sailormom Don't mean to scare you
CatLawyer1 It does kind of bother me that I'm still bruising around my toes
after 2 1/2 weeks.
Sailormom How many weeks now?
CatLawyer1 What kind of problems ...?
Sailormom Is the warmth in the cast localized to one spot?
CatLawyer1 Yes -- mostly in the ankle region where the break is - but also on
top of the foot where
CatLawyer1 the newer bruising is.
Sailormom Cat - I would suggest you get it checked out - just to be sure
Sailormom By mow you should be about pain free
Sailormom Unless you are really abusing the leg
CatLawyer1 Okay -- I was going to do that yesterday or today, but too much
work.
CatLawyer1 Boss is gone tomorrow, so it will be easier to do.
Sailormom This is the time to put yourself FIRST - work will always be there
JoniH Work will ALWAYS be there. Sigh
Sailormom Can I go off duty now???
CatLawyer1 I just want my working leg back!!!!
Sailormom Then take care of it!!
CatLawyer1 You sure can, you have been immensely helpful!! The nurse I
talked to Sunday was
JoniH Not to mention your playing leg!
CatLawyer1 AWFUL!!!!!
Rich Dunn The nurse is [ OUT ]
Sailormom I'm an oldie but a goodiw
CatLawyer1 Hi Merrie!
Sailormom Hi Merr
JoniH Hi Merrie.
MERRIEM Hello
Rich Dunn Hi Mary. Your brother gone?
MERRIEM My brother and his soon to be wife just left.
MERRIEM I think this is about his seventh marriage.
JoniH Did you like the soon-to-be?
MERRIEM Plus about five significant others in between.
Sailormom In competition with Liz?
JoniH soon-to-be-x-wife, then?
CatLawyer1 Think so, Smom -- he probably wondered what the heck orthopedics
had to do with FL!!
MERRIEM Too true Joni
MERRIEM How's your ankle, Cat?
JoniH We family law professionals like people like him.
JoniH not really, just kidding.
Rich Dunn Tonight's topic: Orthopedics and Family Law -- Will they Merge?
CatLawyer1 Not as good as I would have hoped, M. Smom just gave me lots of
much needed advice, though.
Sailormom Hell yes!
MERRIEM Only if a lot of potential clients break some bones.
Rich Dunn "My husband is a pain in the ass."
Rich Dunn "Hmmm. Is it a shooting pain?"
Sailormom Well, some of my fam clients end up with broken bones
JoniH Unfortunately, it seems a lot of my clients do end up with broken
bones, or breaking bones.
CatLawyer1 Yikes -- I'm glad I specialize in child support.
MERRIEM We just had a murder/suicide here with the man killing his wife
and then killing himself. Also
Sailormom I had a real winner of a consult to day. She and ex-husb into sex
games on video
MERRIEM injured his daughter.
MERRIEM He said he didn't want to pay any family lawyers.
Sailormom That is tragic. What a waste
CatLawyer1 Did you have to look at the video?
CatLawyer1 Poor daughter.
Sailormom It's really a bizarre case and if the case went as presented and
my call to the court,
Rich Dunn Now Mary, he was only exercising his Second Amendment rights.
Sailormom lots of illegal stuff done by attys
CatLawyer1 She's going to need a lot of love and help.
CatLawyer1 Illegal stuff done by former attorneys?
JoniH Gaurdian ad Litem appointed?
MERRIEM His second amendment rights not to pay a lawyer?
Sailormom Yeah. It's not in my county so I am trying to get her good atty in
her county. Will make my
MERRIEM I don't know what's been done on the daughter's behalf yet. I
think she's still in the hospital.
Rich Dunn Let me check that Second Amendment again...
Sailormom list of truly wierd cases. Listened to ex 15 calls today of
harassing harangue
CatLawyer1 M?? What's going on with your daughter??
MERRIEM She's back to work, having child care problems with the
mother-in-law. Eloping to Las Vegas in Oct.
Sailormom Rhonda was here for a very brief moment
JoniH Ooops, I have let midnight slip right by me again. I need to go
to bed!!
CatLawyer1 Why is she still in hospital?
JoniH Keep the leg up, Cat. Good luck on your fifth day of trial, Smom.
Sailormom Thanx Joni - see you Thurs
CatLawyer1 Thanks, Joni -- nice to see you.
MERRIEM Still in the hospital?
JoniH I'll try.
Sailormom I think she is confused with the murdered parents girl
MERRIEM I think so too.
MERRIEM What meds are you on, Cat?
Rich Dunn Rhonda IM'd me that she was really sleepy, then left.
CatLawyer1 Oh jeez -- it's the darn meds. I thought you were talking about
YOUR daughter.
MERRIEM Glad she gave you the latest news release.
CatLawyer1 Meds make me see "my" in place of "the" -- hoo boy.
MERRIEM Too much vegetarian diet - not enough protein.
Sailormom Cat - will you e-mail me after you see the doc?
CatLawyer1 Hey, hey now --
MERRIEM Just kidding. . .
CatLawyer1 Yes, Smom -- actually, I'd like to, just to have someone else to
check it out with ...
CatLawyer1 Actually, my appetite hasn't been as "healthy" as it normally is.
MERRIEM Is that good news or bad news.
CatLawyer1 Hoping it's just my body adjusting to my decreased activity level
(being smart for once)
Sailormom That's typical. Between misery, meds and learning to use crutches
who can eat??
MERRIEM Reader's Digest told me I made it through the first two stages for
their $5 milion drawing. Think
MERRIEM I'll win this year?
Rich Dunn You're a shoe-in.
CatLawyer1 Yes -- and did I tell you how I think I might have bursitis in my
left shoulder too????
Sailormom Let's hope so. Surely someone I know should win after all these
years
CatLawyer1 Crutches and wheelchair are such a wonderful form of physical
therapy for it, ya know.
Sailormom Try Ibuprofen - 400 mg
MERRIEM Yes, but you get all the disabled parking spaces.
CatLawyer1 No, no -- *I'M* going to win this year.
MERRIEM Okay, then I'll take the Publisher's Clearing House $10 million.
CatLawyer1 Taking 800 mg -- when I remember to (bad patient, bad patient)
Sailormom I'll take TX lottery for 10 mil tomorrow night
Sailormom No 800 is ok, that's the "prescription" dose
CatLawyer1 Yeah, then I'll move in with YOU, Smom!
Sailormom OK
Rich Dunn And those are TX dollars. They're bigger.
MERRIEM Just heard about a garbage collector who won $19 million in his
state's lottery, but he plans to keep
MERRIEM his job.
Sailormom absolutely - no state tax
Rich Dunn They all say that. Check back a year from now.
CatLawyer1 No state tax at all? Or no income tax?
Sailormom no income tax. have sales tax
MERRIEM If I won anything, they'd never hear from me again. I"d mail the
keys to the office in.
Sailormom where would you go?
Rich Dunn I they has a sails tax, s'mom would be a tax protester.
MERRIEM We have no income tax here which was a big shock after having
lived in CA.
CatLawyer1 Same here. Sales tax in WA is outrageous though -- over 8% (I
think)
Sailormom LOL
MERRIEM I'd take off for parts unknown - travel, travel, travel.
Rich Dunn Noth, to Alas-ka...
CatLawyer1 Sounds good. Take me too.
Rich Dunn Noth? North
MERRIEM West to Hawaii
MERRIEM East to Europe
Rich Dunn South to Rio.
MERRIEM Across the U.S. in a motor home.
CatLawyer1 I like M's directions .. I already live as far north as I want to
--
MERRIEM I don't want to live in those places - just visit.
Sailormom I could spend a lot of time in the virgin islands
MERRIEM Third stop for me.
CatLawyer1 I'd start a great big cat sanctuary!
Rich Dunn WA would be ok if they'd just fix that leak in the roof.
MERRIEM To Victoria to pick up my Mercedes.
Rich Dunn Oh, yeah. Almost forgot.
Rich Dunn Have you booked the holiday time you need to go get it?
CatLawyer1 Then it wouldn't be so green and pretty though -- I like the rain
(in measured doses)
MERRIEM Reno Air has a one way flight to Vancover for only $59.
Sailormom the northwest is on my list of "too see"
CatLawyer1 You going to take the boat from Victoria to Seattle to get the car
back?
MERRIEM Yes.
CatLawyer1 Smom -- come sailing out here! It's the BEST!
Sailormom For real?
MERRIEM As soon as they draw my name.
Sailormom I would love to sail out there. My kid loved it
MERRIEM Hey, Cat left. Think the meds got to her or did she get bumped?
Sailormom probably bumped - she is too polite to just leave
MERRIEM She's back. . .
CatLawyer1 Must be God's electronic way of telling me it's time for bed?
CatLawyer1 Thank you Smom --
Sailormom I have to go also, another early a.m. Looking forward to Saturday!!
CatLawyer1 The codeine is finally starting to kick in ...
CatLawyer1 Saturday?
CatLawyer1 Are you meeting the infamous couple on Saturday?
Sailormom Cat - now law down all confy and take 10 nice slow deep breaths -
happy dreams
Sailormom Day of rest- tough week
CatLawyer1 I'll get rest tonight if you promise to get rest on -- just
Saturday?
MERRIEM Tomorrow they're finally presenting the evaluation to my problem
employee. I hope she doesn't get too
MERRIEM weepy.
Sailormom Sat is enuf
Sailormom Will she take it out on you Merr
CatLawyer1 Super Smom -- go, go, go --
MERRIEM Just by pouting and not talking to me, but that's actually an
advantage.
Sailormom will she blab to others
CatLawyer1 Oh, M, I forgot to tell you. Big legislative hearing next week to
look into ...
MERRIEM I'm not sure about that. Everyone knows when she's in trouble
because she stomps around the office
MERRIEM like an elephant.
CatLawyer1 splitting up our gigantic umbrella agency (DSHS)
MERRIEM Did your boss go to D.C.?
CatLawyer1 Yes - she leaves tomorrow.
MERRIEM Will she testify?
CatLawyer1 I spent the last few days writing the testimony for next week's
hearing.
MERRIEM I wish my boss was going. I need him to be out of town more often.
CatLawyer1 Yes, she has to testify, though she's not very happy about it ...
MERRIEM He'd be a big disadvantage in D.C. though.
MERRIEM I would think that would be the best part.
MERRIEM Think she'll get her 15 minutes of fame on CNN?
CatLawyer1 DSHS is the 6th largest employer in the State -- something like
17,000 employees.
CatLawyer1 No, she's not going to testify in DC, just at our little ol'
legislative hearing.
MERRIEM I just heard one in four working persons works for the government.
Doesn't that sound high?
Sailormom gotta go folks, til Thurs...............
MERRIEM OIC
CatLawyer1 The committee members are all GOP except for one -- and she's
proposing new leg.
CatLawyer1 Smom -- thank you SOOOOOO much for your help. I'll e-mail you
tomorrow.
MERRIEM Bye, S.mom. Glad I caught you before you left.
CatLawyer1 I gotta go too -- my ride picks me up at 7 a.m. tomorrow.
MERRIEM Where are you going?
Rich Dunn Work.
CatLawyer1 To work! I can't drive for the next 2-3 months.
MERRIEM Oh, that's no fun.
MERRIEM OIC
Rich Dunn 7 a.m.
CatLawyer1 You're telling me --
MERRIEM I leave about 5:30 a.m. for Reno everyday.
Rich Dunn And sleep between now and then isn't exactly guaranteed.
CatLawyer1 Exactly --
MERRIEM I hope you do get a good night's rest. Going to work tired is
awful.
CatLawyer1 Thanks -- I'll do my best. Hopefully fatigue from the lack of
sleep last night will help.
Rich Dunn The heavy cast, the swelling, the pain, all the ingredients of a
good night's sleep.
MERRIEM Get an electric bed, like I have. Its great!
CatLawyer1 Yes, perfect combo. Try it sometime!
Rich Dunn No thanks. I like to live vicariously.
CatLawyer1 I'll check in with you guys on Thursday -- unless they amputate
between now and then.
Rich Dunn Don't worry. You'll still be welcome.
CatLawyer1 What a sweetie --
CatLawyer1 Take care, you two. See you soon!
MERRIEM See you later. . .
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