Novel Ideas 2-20-03
Novel Ideas 2-20-03
A "protocol free" discussion about Point of View.
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 6] 2/20/03 09:00 PM
HOST WPLC Tricia: I've been reading up on POV all day....
Nsummers882: I can always use advice on tht topic
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Me too
HOST WPLC Tricia: I have found that it is one thing to recognize errors in a MS, and another to get a grip on the subject so that I can (try) to answer questions!
Nsummers882: cool
Nsummers882: got to braid daughter hair
HOST WPLC Tricia: I also found that almost EVERYONE, both famous and unknown, makes mistakes in POV...
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Speaking of editing, Tricia, I know you edit books, I was wondering if you wanted a crack at my work in progress
Nsummers882: Hi suspence
Suspensewriter: Hi Nancy
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Suspence
HOST WPLC Tricia: I'll take a look at it. Mind you, I DO tell the truth...
Suspensewriter: Hi Andrea
Braguine: Rejoyce everyone, I'm back!
Nsummers882: I make mistakes all the time switching pov between charaters, its so hard to not do it
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Okay, it will be a few months before it's ready to go, but when it is I'll send it. Just tell me when it's time where to send it.
Suspensewriter: Hi Alex
HOST WPLC Tricia: I have read so many bad (published) books lately, that I am wondering what idiots they are employing in the trade... probably the same kind of clerical personel who gave that poor girl a mismatched heart and lungs....
Braguine: Hi, susp
Nsummers882: Hi mtcrazy
KD et al: Brag [] Oh dear, and I have sworn off puns..
Braguine: Lol tricia
HOST WPLC AWeiss: I can't do third person POV at all, never liked writing in it
HOST WPLC Tricia: <---rejoicing
Braguine: KD-good
Braguine: Tric, thanks for the spelling
Nsummers882: Hi key
KeytapperTwo: Evening everyone
HOST WPLC Tricia: First person has a few disadvantages though, and it is considered the most difficult POV to write in ... well.
Suspensewriter: Hi Key
HOST WPLC Tricia: For all I knew Brag... you might have a roomate named Joy....
KeytapperTwo: brb
Braguine: I find 1st pov very limiting
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi Suspense... missed you last week....
Suspensewriter: Hi Trish!
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi Key, Welcome!
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Key
LITTLETUX: hi kids
Suspensewriter: Trish, that's so true about first person... a lot of writers seem to see it as a license to get too introspective
Braguine: Tric-introduce her to me and tell her to bring a toothbrush
KeytapperTwo: back
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Really, I'm surprised about first person POV. I seem to find it easy..
KD et al: Hello al new
HOST WPLC Tricia: LOL Brag
KD et al: oops all new
Nsummers882: I can only do 1st person in my autobiography
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Eagle, Little
LITTLETUX: hi weiss
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi Eagle!
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi TUX!
Nsummers882: hi Eagle
LITTLETUX: hi tricia
Nsummers882: hi luv and tux
LITTLETUX: hi summer
HOST WPLC Tricia: (that is the last time I will cap that tux... am trying to speed type.
KeytapperTwo: 1st person limits the storyline to what that character can know
Luv2write: Hi Summer, everyone
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hold that thought Key... I would like to address it later.
LITTLETUX: but my name is spelled in caps tricia LOL
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Luv
HOST WPLC Tricia: We'll start in about a minute and a half....
KD et al: lol
KeytapperTwo: holding thought although very heavy
HOST WPLC Tricia: <-----levitating that thought for Key
LITTLETUX: lol
Luv2write: What is our topic tonight?
Braguine: Suspense, you're right. Recently I had to remove a lot of introspections, it made it look my hero was a wimp
LITTLETUX: are we going to levitate tonight
HOST WPLC Tricia: Point of View
Luv2write: ty tricia
HOST WPLC Tricia: yw Luv
Braguine: Tux-I've inflated my ego
LITTLETUX: ahhhh my editors favorite phrase.........POV??
LITTLETUX: kewl braguine
HOST WPLC Tricia: LOL Tux
LITTLETUX: i think he just likes to use those letters.........the wee beasty
HOST WPLC Tricia: When you see the editor question your POV, Tux... you have slipped out of the one you probably started with.
LITTLETUX: ye think? LOL
KD et al: hmm
LITTLETUX: i am an old woman i have a shakey POV
HOST WPLC Tricia: It only takes a word misplaced to slip out of POV...
KD et al: And Head Hopping is bad? Right?
KD et al: Hello Hill
HOST WPLC AWeiss: LOL
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Hill
LITTLETUX: KD i personally like it
Hillwithit: Hill hopping is bad?
Suspensewriter: Alex, yes (sorry, was away) but it's a big temptation in 1st person
HOST WPLC Tricia: Right UNLESS you are writing in Omniscient Third Person POV...
Suspensewriter: Hi Hill
KD et al: ok
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi Hill!
LITTLETUX: hmmmmm a ghostly POV
KeytapperTwo: most writers should write in te omniscient 3rd person...our egos feel right at home there
LITTLETUX: that is the one i have trouble with
Hillwithit: Hello all, sorry to be late.
Braguine: It is easier to do humor in the 1st
HOST WPLC Tricia: Okay... I am ready to start with a few comments and then we can discuss and I'll try to answer questions.
Hillwithit: Tricia - is lots of "head-hopping" really okay if you're writing in the omniscent third person? (I'm trying what I call the "smart-ass omniscent" voice.)
KeytapperTwo: lol Hill
HOST WPLC Tricia: First of all, you all know what POV means, right?
Suspensewriter: I thought "omniscient" was no particular POV aka God's POV
KD et al: I would like to know too, re Hill's question. Can you do a lot of it?
HOST WPLC Tricia: HIll, the smart-ass omniscient is one very good use for the Omniscient POV..
LITTLETUX: yes
HOST WPLC Eagle: don't try headhopping in the same scene
KeytapperTwo: Hill...sort of like the Monday morning quarterbacking pov
Nsummers882: In my situtation My main character has 3 very supporting well 4 characters who I want the reader to really know
HOST WPLC Tricia: One thing the Omniscient POV makes possible... to watch misunderstandings in real time
LITTLETUX: hi duffer
Suspensewriter: POV = Pickled on Vodka
LITTLETUX: lol sus
Hillwithit: Eagle - what if the scene is broken into two parts - two people talking, but breaking up their full conversation into halves, one p.o.v. per person?
HOST WPLC Tricia: which adds a certain amount of humor... the Omniscient POV is always a bit ironic, amused and detached.
Nsummers882: main character is a child in the beginning too
HOST WPLC Tricia: And IN Omniscient POV it is perfectly okay to hop-heads from paragraph to paragraph...
LITTLETUX: so do you add those parts with a new paragraph
Nsummers882: so her dad very strong, and her bestfriend
KD et al: good
HOST WPLC Tricia: or even within the same paragraph, although too much head-hopping does get confusing, so you need to try and be judicious.
Nsummers882: Hi cyn
Cyncity 1: hi
Hillwithit: Hi Cyn.
LITTLETUX: i have so much trouble with doing that
HOST WPLC Eagle: Hill, should work as long as it's clear which POV you're in
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Cyn
HOST WPLC Tricia: Omniscient POV is the ONLY POV where head-hopping is permitted...
Suspensewriter: Hi Cyn
Hillwithit: Eagle - good, thanks.
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 12] 2/20/03 09:15 PM
Cyncity 1: omniscient is annoying...hear it called lazy writing all the time
Suspensewriter: I'm not sure I understand, Trish and Eagle... I thought "omniscient" means NO internal POV, or objective... am I wrong?
HOST WPLC Eagle: I prefer third person singular myself
Cyncity 1: i like third person limited, may be the same thing
LITTLETUX: ::::::getting out my grammar study guide::::::::
HOST WPLC Tricia: The drawbacks of Omniscient POV is 1) it is sort of archaic... 2) It creates a distance from the reader... everything is filtered through the "narrator's" viewpoint... the reader never gets to know characters well.
Nsummers882: Im not sure which one I do help???
Suspensewriter: I prefer third person multiple
Hillwithit: Yes, could we get short examples of "Omniscent P.O.V." and also "normal"(?) P.O.V. etc.?
HOST WPLC Tricia: Which can be effective if you are into irony...
Braguine: Both reading and writing I prefer third person limited
KD et al: LittleTux- Me too! LOL
Cyncity 1: suspense...i think you do third person limited
Cyncity 1: you stay within one pov per scene
HOST WPLC Eagle: Cyn, it is, but I change POVs throughout the story staying in 3rd limited for each scene
Cyncity 1: yes..then we're talking about the same thing
HOST WPLC Tricia: Here is a short example of Omniscient...
KD et al: Would the answers regarding head hopping apply also to short stories? OR only novels?
Suspensewriter: Not exactly, Cyn... but good subject, let's discuss that later
HOST WPLC Tricia: "Taking her out was like taking a final exam. Pete knew he was failing, but he couldn't figure out why.
LITTLETUX: ahhhhh okay
LITTLETUX: thank y9ou
HOST WPLC AWeiss: I might try third person omniscent POV with what I wrtie next, sounds interesting. And may help me get over my third person POV block.
HOST WPLC Tricia: He kept bumbling along, trying to impress Nora with his sensitivity, NEVER GUESSING THAT NORA WAS MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE WITH BEER-AND-FOOTBALL TYPES. SHE HAD GROWN UP WITH BROTHERS.... "
HOST WPLC Eagle: I think you can use 3rd person limited with only one POV throughout an entire book or you can use it for several characters as long as you don't skip from one to another without a line break
HOST WPLC Tricia: Then it goes on to be in Nora's head.... what her brothers were like etc....
Cyncity 1: that's also author intrusion, isn't it?
Suspensewriter: Guys, what if you change POV within each scene by inserting some sort of mark showing your changing? And how do we define scene?
Cyncity 1: that's my understanding too eagle
HOST WPLC Tricia: As I said... everything is filtered through the "narrator's" mind....
Cyncity 1: show the pov switch
HOST WPLC Tricia: The caps indicate the POV switch.... it goes on to say...
Nsummers882: So what if your using the he said she said
Cyncity 1: suspense...all you need is ### or *** or an extra space to tell the reader there's a pov switch
Nsummers882: then line filtering would not apply
Suspensewriter: Cyn, I sometimes indicate POV switches within scene... I don't know if that occurs in anything of mine that you read, though
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Not all the time Ns, I've seen that with first person POV too.
HOST WPLC Tricia: She had often told her friends that all but six of her bones had been broken in childhood, she could not remember a time when she didn't have a cast on some part of her body..."
HOST WPLC Eagle: I find it helpful to begin scenes with the POV character's Name
LITTLETUX: so basically it is a matter of preference.........just consistancy?
HOST WPLC Tricia: The above is all in the same paragraph...
Nsummers882: Im not using 1st person but have sev. characters in a chapter and found it was only way I could do it
LITTLETUX: hi jack
HOST WPLC Eagle: TUX usually, but omnicient is hard to pull off well
Cyncity 1: agree eagle...let the reader know whose head we're in
Nsummers882: Hi jack
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Jack
Hillwithit: Yo, Jack.
Jackatbrun: Everning, Tux, all.
Braguine: Changin pov during scene example: Harry stood thinking his boss was wrong, they shook hands and Harry left #
LITTLETUX: cyn i can see that......
Suspensewriter: I use *** but that is sometimes WITHIN a scene
HOST WPLC Tricia: Okay...to back up....
LITTLETUX: ahh brag you have pinpointed my sin LOL
KD et al: wow this is a lot of stuff and confusing..
HOST WPLC Eagle: Suspence, a scene can have more than one POV as long as you break between them
Cyncity 1: that's okay suspense
Braguine: George watched Harry stomp out of the bar. Tha man is in deep trouble, thought
Suspensewriter: Eagle, yes, that's what I'm saying
Cyncity 1: just don't hop from head to head without letting the reader know
HOST WPLC Eagle: A lot of my scenes are made up of 3 or four people's view of the same event
Suspensewriter: Exactly, Cyn
HOST WPLC Eagle: but they are clearly indicated
Suspensewriter: So, what is the definition of multple v. limited POV?
Jackatbrun: Jay, still sounds like a lot of POVs to cope with.
LITTLETUX: ahhhhhh Jim will be so happy you explained this to me in simple terms tricia LOL
HOST WPLC Eagle: Jack, not if it works
Cyncity 1: limited means one per scene or section of a scene...like you do
HOST WPLC Tricia: Actuually, Cyn it is preferable to change POV characters at chapter breaks... or at scene breaks... it takes longer to write, but it is less unsettling for the reader.
Jackatbrun: True, but why put the reader through all that back and forth.
SusanIs: Hi
LITTLETUX: :::::love when a light bulb, shines above my head:::::::
KD et al: Eagle, I used to do that, and then I saw that they made a TV show using that same technique.
Cyncity 1: agree tricia, but there are exceptions and suspense has one
HOST WPLC Eagle: people see events differently and so do characters
SusanIs: Topic?
HOST WPLC Tricia: One reason, Suspense, that this subject is so difficult, is that nobody can agree on what the TERMS mean.
Nsummers882: I changed into and made a whole chapter when the Dad was thinking about somthing that happened a few days before
Suspensewriter: My agent told me: "Handling multiple POV is very difficult, doing it well is even more difficult, and you do it very well."
SusanIs: That's good
LITTLETUX: lucky you suspense
Suspensewriter: So, what is the definition of lawful multiple POV?
SusanIs: I do first person POV, always
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Yes
HOST WPLC Eagle: I do not mean different POVs for the same PART of a scene - I mean sequential POV changes
Braguine: Good show suspense
Nsummers882: yes suspense
Suspensewriter: Oh, okay, Eagle, I think we're on the same page then... or same POV
HOST WPLC Tricia: Lawful multiple would be when you change POV at chapter or scene breaks OR you leave a line space before changing within a scene...
Nsummers882: lol
SusanIs: Anyone else do first person?
Cyncity 1: not brave enough susan...lol
HOST WPLC Eagle: I have not yet learned how to handle 1st person and omnicient confuses me evewn when someone else uses it
LITTLETUX: i'm not sure anymore
Harterone: me, some
HOST WPLC AWeiss: I do first person.
Cyncity 1: that seems very difficult to me
HOST WPLC Tricia: Although you should probably take care not to do it too often...within a scene... one limitation of third limited is that it IS limited...
SusanIs: It's the only one I feel TOTALLY comfortable with
Suspensewriter: Susan, I did first person on a mystery I didn't do much in trying to get published
Hillwithit: Eagle - I agree - I can listen to God or Man but not both jabbering away at me.
SusanIs: My crime novel is first person
LITTLETUX: lol hill
HOST WPLC Tricia: You should not treat third limited as if it were omniscient in wolf's clothing.
SusanIs: from POV of intended victim
HOST WPLC Eagle: Tricia, of course not
HOST WPLC AWeiss: From POV of the narrator
Cyncity 1: well put tricia!
LITTLETUX: :::::::looking to jack for humor::::::::::
Suspensewriter: Trish, great way of putting
Suspensewriter: it
HOST WPLC Tricia: One thing about First Person, is that the person has had to survive to tell the tale....
SusanIs: Well, mine is told present tense
SusanIs: So you don't really know
Cyncity 1: first person, present tense...wow
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Not really, look at Lovely Bones, that's first person, from someone who is dead.
Hillwithit: Tricia - I'm afraid I need example of each term as you go - maybe others do, if not, it's just me. Any chance you could introduce a term about POV, then define and give an example as you go?
SarahStNy: I'm writing in first person
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Mine is present tense too
HOST WPLC Tricia: With first person... your story is told at the distance of time... in order to tell the story the POV character has had to have survived the action...
SusanIs: I love first person
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 16] 2/20/03 09:30 PM
SusanIs: Reading it as well
SusanIs: Good example is...In The Cut
Jackatbrun: If you're looking for an excellent discussion of pov, see John Gardner's The Art of Fiction. It's available just about everywhere.
KeytapperTwo: Agatha Christy wrote a mystery (redundant) in 1st person and it turned out that the person telling the tale was the killer
SusanIs: Which is also 1st person present tense
HOST WPLC AWeiss: So do I, I seem to have an easy time wirting it.
KD et al: Yes, I like first person too, in some cases.
HOST WPLC Tricia: The POV character has to have a reason to tell this story....
Suspensewriter: Falling Angel (forgot author) was like that, Key
SusanIs: Anyone read In The Cut?
HOST WPLC Tricia: One word about present tense... unless you are a wildly popular published writer... or have
HOST WPLC Tricia: literary pretensions, present tense is hard reading, and is an experimental form for the most
HOST WPLC Tricia: part... there is a REASON why most popular fiction is written in Third Person POV... Limited.
HOST WPLC Tricia: PAST TENSE
SusanIs: Well, guess I have literary pretensions
SusanIs: I was taught write what works best for you
Suspensewriter: I think present tense is annoying and pretentious when used throughout a whole novel... at least very tricky to make it come across right
Hillwithit: Suspense - ditto.
SarahStNy: []
Harterone: agree .. little goes a long way
HOST WPLC Tricia: Present tense irritates me...I can't read it... reads like a screen-play...
KD et al: Why is it pretension if that is how a particular story happens to want to be written, ie present tense.
SusanIs: Thanks KD
KD et al: But then, I am talking short story, not a whole book..
Jackatbrun: Susan, we all have the problem: we write for ourselves and love to read ourselves. As long as we never want to publish, that's all she wrote.
SarahStNy: it is extremely difficult to pull off
HOST WPLC Tricia: It depends on whether or not you wish to have the story/book published...
SusanIs: Well, the book DID get an agent
HOST WPLC Tricia: GMTA Jack
Hillwithit: KD - for the same reason anything else in life might seem pretentious (of someone else!) -- sure it works for them, but the rest of us sort of groan and think "gimme a large personal break..."
SarahStNy: I think the Dress Lodger was present tense, but multiple POV and a rather strange style.
LITTLETUX: will you give and example of present tense please tricia
HOST WPLC Tricia: Generally speaking... GENERALLY.... present tense is not a readily marketable commodity...
HOST WPLC Tricia: "I go to the bar, and I say... gimme another tequila..."
SarahStNy: I go to the store and pick up the paper. I see my friend.
SusanIs: Last book I read was also present tense
LITTLETUX: thank you
HOST WPLC Tricia: that was present tense.
KD et al: Same question again- is all the advice tonight also applicable to short stories, or only novels?
Hillwithit: "He writes in the pretentious present tense. He is happy. He mails off his novel that is written that way. He watches the mailbox. He finally gets a rejection letter and a small scorpion enclosed."
SusanIs: Not ALL present tense is like that
Jackatbrun: The point of view can also affect enormous differences in psychic distance. The following examples, from Gardner, go from a star's view of the scene to within the skin of the person.
LITTLETUX: lol hil
SusanIs: Oh, please!
HOST WPLC Tricia: I mostly am talking about novels, KD.... it is easier to get away with off-beat in SS.
Harterone: hill lol. mine was powdered
Jackatbrun: !) It was winter of the yar 1853. A large man stepped out of a doorway.
Jackatbrun: 2) Henry J. Warburton had never much cared for snowstorms.
Jackatbrun: 3) Henry hated snowstorms.
KD et al: ok, Host Tricia, so some of the advice might not apply to SS then right?
Jackatbrun: 4) God how he hated these damn snowstorms.
LITTLETUX: thank you jack
KD et al: LOL
KD et al: Good job
Jackatbrun: 5) Snow. Under your collar, down inside your shoes, freezing and plugging up your miserable soul....
HOST WPLC Tricia: Well, it applies in most cases, but if you wish to experiment, a SS is the place to do it.... tales too long to write a whole novel... that may or may not....
HOST WPLC Tricia: tales=takes
HOST WPLC AWeiss: What about second person POV. I know it's not used much, but it might be fun to have a book where 'you say and then she sasy that' for example
HOST WPLC AWeiss: say[]
Hillwithit: AWeiss -worse.
KD et al: Ok, thank you []
Suspensewriter: Went to a workshop a couple years ago and this woman conducting it pubished a YA in present tense and I couldn't get her or her group of sycophants to understand it would flow better in past tense
HOST WPLC Tricia: second personPOV is also a failed experiment...used mostly for how-to stuff... and that is exactly what a whole novel written in second person sounds like...a lecture.
HOST WPLC AWeiss: The only novel I ever read like that was bright Lights, Big City
SarahStNy: that is the most hideous
Hillwithit: The problem I have with the rare "second person" thing is that as I'm reading "You wake up and light a cigarette" -- I'm thinking, no I don't, I don't smoke, don't tell me I do - etc.
HOST WPLC AWeiss: I see. It is hard to read it
Suspensewriter: lol Hill
SusanIs: I wrote an essay in 2nd person
HOST WPLC Tricia: Jack... the examples you gave from Gardiner are what I call 1) cinematic 2) toe-dipping and 3) full immersion
Hillwithit: Susan - essays are very different than novels.
SarahStNy: it is also impersonal
Suspensewriter: 2nd tense works in something gritty, like Fight Club or Bright LIghts
SusanIs: Well, there was a novel in 2nd person
SusanIs: Less Than Zero?
LITTLETUX: what was that book again jack?
Nsummers882: hi reck
SusanIs: Bright Lights, that was it
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Bright Lights, Big City
Jackatbrun: Trish, he continues that psychic distance has to be controlled intelligently.
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Rec
Hillwithit: Yo, Reck-nah!!!
KD et al: Hello Recknor
SusanIs: Didn't do too badly
Recknor: Hey, Nsum, AW, and Hill!
Jackatbrun: Sometimes you have to back off to breathe.
LITTLETUX: was it james gardiner
HOST WPLC Tricia: In Third Person Limited POV... you are limited to one head at a time... and then you can decide what distance you want to be from the action...
Recknor: Hi, KD
SarahStNy: lol Jack (second person)
KD et al: Jackat- that sounds interesting but can you explain more what it means? What did he mean by that? I dont get it..
SusanIs: Ivan is using The New York Times as a tablecloth again. I never get to read it anymore without seeing jelly stains, big blobs of coffee and buttery fingerprints blotting out connecting words, smearing print.
HOST WPLC Tricia: If you choose cinematic..there is quite a bit of distance... it is a cool rational
HOST WPLC Tricia: thing... the clues you give the reader are all pretty "visual" the reader must
HOST WPLC Tricia: interpret the visual clues.. and if the reader misinterprets... that is their look-out...
HOST WPLC Tricia: There are no "interior" clues such as interior monologue or "felt" or "smelled"
SusanIs: "I wish you wouldn't do that," I tell him. "I have place mats." "It's my paper."
SusanIs: Anyone intrigued?
HOST WPLC Eagle: would be interesting if the smeared print added a new slant to the story
KD et al: I havent heard of that one- cinematic.
SusanIs: Well, that's first lines
Hillwithit: Susan, apart from the present tense style, yes, and it's good writing.
Suspensewriter: Susan, what's that from?
SusanIs: My novel
KD et al: Really? I was going to say no. But what do I know.
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 16] 2/20/03 09:45 PM
Suspensewriter: I like it, because it's pithy it works in 2nd person
HOST WPLC Tricia: Toe-dipping goes into the character a bit more... when the cool narrator backs off a bit
HOST WPLC Tricia: and you get a sense of the interior reactions of the character.... as in "She looked in his
HOST WPLC Tricia: direction, her toe tapped on the pavement....(narrator...cinematic..) What the hell was
SusanIs: Very pithy
HOST WPLC Tricia: she thinking now? (Interior thought POV character)
HOST WPLC Tricia: Like I said KD... the terms need to be defined better....
Jackatbrun: KD, if you look at the examples 1-5, the distance btn the reader and the character is least in 5, most in 1, right?
Suspensewriter: I'm sorry, Susan, I meant to say present tense
Suspensewriter: not 2nd person
SusanIs: Anyone want a couple more lines?
Jackatbrun: If you are always inside a person's skin, the experience gets old fast.
Suspensewriter: Susan, yes, fire away!
SusanIs: Promise not to put all 240 pages, LOL
LITTLETUX: Jack what was the title of the book again by gardiner?
HOST WPLC Tricia: That is what I call full immersion, Jack..
HOST WPLC Tricia: And all three or five distances can be used in the same work....
Jackatbrun: But read Poe's Cask of Amantillado, a classic of closeness to the danger and panic, while occasionally backing off to provide a breath here and there.
Jackatbrun: Tux, the Art of Fiction.
HOST WPLC Tricia: Full immersion can be a strain for the reader... it is too intense for 300 pages
LITTLETUX: thank you jack
Suspensewriter: Jack, I love Poe, but he's difficult sometimes
SusanIs: Ivan is too argumentative lately, too quick to respond and not just with words any more. Silence is better. At least when we're not at each other's throats I can still appreciate what attracted me to him
Jackatbrun: Suspense, it's the best kind of "difficult" in literature.
Jackatbrun: all literature.
SarahStNy: intriguing Susan
KD et al: Thank you Jackat. That sounds like very good information. And clear. thanks.
Jackatbrun: No one wrote short stories like Poe.
Suspensewriter: Jack, so true
LITTLETUX: :never more:
Jackatbrun: Suspense, why "difficult"?
KeytapperTwo: but like Poe, it helps to be a little crazy to do it well
KD et al: Full immersion is too intense for that long? Why?
SusanIs: "I forgot to tell you," Ivan says, "some one called you last night before you got home." "Who?" "He didn't say." The he hums around the room like a menacing insect
SusanIs: Okay, that's it
SusanIs: (For now)
HOST WPLC AWeiss: That's great Sus
Recknor: Very good, Susan!
Suspensewriter: Jack, Poe's prose are dense
SusanIs: Thanks
HOST WPLC Tricia: Because you are pretty much always in the character's body and mind... there is no breathing room... everything is intense..felt, thought, smelled...etc.
SarahStNy: yes intriguing
Hillwithit: Susan, why not? : Ivan was too argumentative lately, too quick to respond and not just with words any more. Silence was better. At least when we weren't at each others throats I was still able toappreciate what attracted me to him.
SusanIs: The he who called is stalking the narrator
Suspensewriter: Ever read "Analysis of Maelzel's Chess Player"?
KD et al: But isnt that one of the purposes of a novel?
Suspensewriter: So wonderful, but so so densely prosacic
HOST WPLC Eagle: If I stayed in one POV for an entire book I'd bore myself into a major writers block
SusanIs: No, I'm sticking with present tense
HOST WPLC Tricia: It is ONE of the purposes of a novel, not the ONLY purpose...
Jackatbrun: Poe's prose is a lesson in tight writing and active verbs.
KD et al: Right, ok
Harterone: Jack...champion of active verbs
Rdpelleg: I don't think Poe even had that in mind when he wrote
Jackatbrun: Suspense, lol, that's why they call it "litrature."
HOST WPLC Tricia: If you stay in full immersion for the whole novel... certain less important scenes are given importance over and above what they need....
Jackatbrun: Hart*
Suspensewriter: Ah, I see... "lit'ry"
HOST WPLC Tricia: the reader for whom we are writing, become exhausted... and there is no "texture" to the novel.. it is like a movie that is one long car chase....
Suspensewriter: Literature doesn't have to be dense, but dense prose can still be literature, but I prefer something a little more... um, less dense?
HOST WPLC Tricia: readers become/reader becomes
Rdpelleg: I really don't like James Joyce
HOST WPLC Tricia: sorry about that
Rdpelleg: however I do like Lorrie Moore
Suspensewriter: <--wishes he could go back in time and tell him, "Hey, Edgar, like, lighten up."
Rdpelleg: Why? It wouldn;t make him a master of literature
KD et al: Can someone give me an example of dense prose?
Rdpelleg: If there was no Poe
Recknor: Tell him "Just say no" on the drugs, while you're at it, Suspense.
Rdpelleg: there would be no
SarahStNy: well he was depressed...lol
KeytapperTwo: <<wishes she could go back in time and tell Dickens to get to the point....now that is ego
Rdpelleg: Stephen King
Rdpelleg: or H.G. Wells
Jackatbrun: Ah, the intense prose is considered in all of his short stories. The subject is therefore intense and scary. King is a BIG fan of Poe's.
Rdpelleg: Who wouldn't be
HOST WPLC Tricia: But, Suspense, he was writing in his time... and people who read were probably better
HOST WPLC Tricia: eddicated than they are now... a normal school curriculum included Greek and Latin, I
HOST WPLC Tricia: believe.... Poe's audience was more familiar with words...
Suspensewriter: Reck, LOL!
SusanIs: Have a good night []
HOST WPLC Eagle: Keytapper - Dickens was serialized and getting paid by the column inch
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Night Sus
Suspensewriter: Trish, I understand that
Recknor: Night, Susan
SusanIs: G'night
Rdpelleg: Hawthorne, I believed was overlooked
Nsummers882: night susan
Recknor: And besides, I actually LIKE Dickens. <G>
Suspensewriter: But, Reck, there is some controversy about Poe actually using opium
KD et al: What is dense prose?
Jackatbrun: Reck, me too, but I doubt if he would get published today, without the name.
HOST WPLC Eagle: it's easy to get wordy when you're getting paid by the word
HOST WPLC Tricia: I like Dickens as well... his characters are priceless... so priceless they have become stereotypes...
Suspensewriter: And even a theory Poe was possibly murdered
Rdpelleg: Actually I heard he had rabies
Recknor: I doubt that most 19th century authors would be pubbed today in this MTV enviornment.
SarahStNy: by whom Sus?
Nsummers882: I heard about that suspense
HOST WPLC Tricia: I would think Poe wrote dense prose... KD... ask Suspense or Jack...
HOST WPLC Tricia: they coined the phrase
Hillwithit: KD - "dense prose" is when a writer is too dense to ever research or worry about the marketplace or the reader the writing is intended to please.
HOST WPLC Tricia: LOL Hill....
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Maybe Jane Austin though, her story Emma became the film Cluless, and it was a hit on MTV
Jackatbrun: Like F. Scott Fitzgerald. If you want to see someone break POV rules, go to google and write in "Bernice Bobs her Hair," a Fitz short story on line.
KD et al: Reck, I agree
Hillwithit: Reck - T Time Dickens, dog, get down...
HOST WPLC Tricia: but curiously resonant
HOST WPLC Eagle: in the 19th century books and theater were all the rage and everybody wanted to appear "cultured"
Recknor: Yo, KD and Hill. <G>
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Clueless[]
KeytapperTwo: Yet 10-12 year olds are reading Lord of the Rings....complicated reading for a generation of MTV kids
Jackatbrun: He uses a god-like, omniscient POV.
Recknor: Right, Eagle.
KeytapperTwo: So, if you write it well......they will read it
HOST WPLC Eagle: remember, Dicken's stories were the 19th century's soap operas
Nsummers882: It was the kids of the 80s that got messed up
Rdpelleg: What is wrong with that Key, those three books are well written
KD et al: Thank you for that non definition Hill
Harterone: you know, Dickens wasn't the only writer of that time. Wonder who his competition was?
HOST WPLC Eagle: readers waitied at the depot for the monthly installment
KeytapperTwo: Rdp...yes...my point exactly. People underestimate the readers out there
Rdpelleg: Tolken reminded me of Shakespeare
Hillwithit: KD - thank you for that non-thank you.
Recknor: Now, kiddies...
HOST WPLC Eagle: Harterone, the guy who invented the Penny Dredfulls
Rdpelleg: I don't like Science Fiction but I do love Ray Bradbury
HOST WPLC Eagle: dime novels and the wild wild west
Jackatbrun: To rewrite Dickens and rid his prose of "to be" verbs would sound like: "The best times obtained; the worst times obtained...." Just doesn't make it: "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times...."
Recknor: Bradbury is one of the very best.
HOST WPLC Tricia: Final word on POV (FOR TONIGHT) : There is no right or wrong POV... they all have their limitations and their advantages... but POV can make or break a novel. So choose wisely, for YOUR story.
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 17] 2/20/03 10:00 PM
A "protocol free" discussion about Point of View.
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 6] 2/20/03 09:00 PM
HOST WPLC Tricia: I've been reading up on POV all day....
Nsummers882: I can always use advice on tht topic
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Me too
HOST WPLC Tricia: I have found that it is one thing to recognize errors in a MS, and another to get a grip on the subject so that I can (try) to answer questions!
Nsummers882: cool
Nsummers882: got to braid daughter hair
HOST WPLC Tricia: I also found that almost EVERYONE, both famous and unknown, makes mistakes in POV...
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Speaking of editing, Tricia, I know you edit books, I was wondering if you wanted a crack at my work in progress
Nsummers882: Hi suspence
Suspensewriter: Hi Nancy
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Suspence
HOST WPLC Tricia: I'll take a look at it. Mind you, I DO tell the truth...
Suspensewriter: Hi Andrea
Braguine: Rejoyce everyone, I'm back!
Nsummers882: I make mistakes all the time switching pov between charaters, its so hard to not do it
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Okay, it will be a few months before it's ready to go, but when it is I'll send it. Just tell me when it's time where to send it.
Suspensewriter: Hi Alex
HOST WPLC Tricia: I have read so many bad (published) books lately, that I am wondering what idiots they are employing in the trade... probably the same kind of clerical personel who gave that poor girl a mismatched heart and lungs....
Braguine: Hi, susp
Nsummers882: Hi mtcrazy
KD et al: Brag [] Oh dear, and I have sworn off puns..
Braguine: Lol tricia
HOST WPLC AWeiss: I can't do third person POV at all, never liked writing in it
HOST WPLC Tricia: <---rejoicing
Braguine: KD-good
Braguine: Tric, thanks for the spelling
Nsummers882: Hi key
KeytapperTwo: Evening everyone
HOST WPLC Tricia: First person has a few disadvantages though, and it is considered the most difficult POV to write in ... well.
Suspensewriter: Hi Key
HOST WPLC Tricia: For all I knew Brag... you might have a roomate named Joy....
KeytapperTwo: brb
Braguine: I find 1st pov very limiting
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi Suspense... missed you last week....
Suspensewriter: Hi Trish!
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi Key, Welcome!
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Key
LITTLETUX: hi kids
Suspensewriter: Trish, that's so true about first person... a lot of writers seem to see it as a license to get too introspective
Braguine: Tric-introduce her to me and tell her to bring a toothbrush
KeytapperTwo: back
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Really, I'm surprised about first person POV. I seem to find it easy..
KD et al: Hello al new
HOST WPLC Tricia: LOL Brag
KD et al: oops all new
Nsummers882: I can only do 1st person in my autobiography
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Eagle, Little
LITTLETUX: hi weiss
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi Eagle!
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi TUX!
Nsummers882: hi Eagle
LITTLETUX: hi tricia
Nsummers882: hi luv and tux
LITTLETUX: hi summer
HOST WPLC Tricia: (that is the last time I will cap that tux... am trying to speed type.
KeytapperTwo: 1st person limits the storyline to what that character can know
Luv2write: Hi Summer, everyone
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hold that thought Key... I would like to address it later.
LITTLETUX: but my name is spelled in caps tricia LOL
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Luv
HOST WPLC Tricia: We'll start in about a minute and a half....
KD et al: lol
KeytapperTwo: holding thought although very heavy
HOST WPLC Tricia: <-----levitating that thought for Key
LITTLETUX: lol
Luv2write: What is our topic tonight?
Braguine: Suspense, you're right. Recently I had to remove a lot of introspections, it made it look my hero was a wimp
LITTLETUX: are we going to levitate tonight
HOST WPLC Tricia: Point of View
Luv2write: ty tricia
HOST WPLC Tricia: yw Luv
Braguine: Tux-I've inflated my ego
LITTLETUX: ahhhh my editors favorite phrase.........POV??
LITTLETUX: kewl braguine
HOST WPLC Tricia: LOL Tux
LITTLETUX: i think he just likes to use those letters.........the wee beasty
HOST WPLC Tricia: When you see the editor question your POV, Tux... you have slipped out of the one you probably started with.
LITTLETUX: ye think? LOL
KD et al: hmm
LITTLETUX: i am an old woman i have a shakey POV
HOST WPLC Tricia: It only takes a word misplaced to slip out of POV...
KD et al: And Head Hopping is bad? Right?
KD et al: Hello Hill
HOST WPLC AWeiss: LOL
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Hill
LITTLETUX: KD i personally like it
Hillwithit: Hill hopping is bad?
Suspensewriter: Alex, yes (sorry, was away) but it's a big temptation in 1st person
HOST WPLC Tricia: Right UNLESS you are writing in Omniscient Third Person POV...
Suspensewriter: Hi Hill
KD et al: ok
HOST WPLC Tricia: Hi Hill!
LITTLETUX: hmmmmm a ghostly POV
KeytapperTwo: most writers should write in te omniscient 3rd person...our egos feel right at home there
LITTLETUX: that is the one i have trouble with
Hillwithit: Hello all, sorry to be late.
Braguine: It is easier to do humor in the 1st
HOST WPLC Tricia: Okay... I am ready to start with a few comments and then we can discuss and I'll try to answer questions.
Hillwithit: Tricia - is lots of "head-hopping" really okay if you're writing in the omniscent third person? (I'm trying what I call the "smart-ass omniscent" voice.)
KeytapperTwo: lol Hill
HOST WPLC Tricia: First of all, you all know what POV means, right?
Suspensewriter: I thought "omniscient" was no particular POV aka God's POV
KD et al: I would like to know too, re Hill's question. Can you do a lot of it?
HOST WPLC Tricia: HIll, the smart-ass omniscient is one very good use for the Omniscient POV..
LITTLETUX: yes
HOST WPLC Eagle: don't try headhopping in the same scene
KeytapperTwo: Hill...sort of like the Monday morning quarterbacking pov
Nsummers882: In my situtation My main character has 3 very supporting well 4 characters who I want the reader to really know
HOST WPLC Tricia: One thing the Omniscient POV makes possible... to watch misunderstandings in real time
LITTLETUX: hi duffer
Suspensewriter: POV = Pickled on Vodka
LITTLETUX: lol sus
Hillwithit: Eagle - what if the scene is broken into two parts - two people talking, but breaking up their full conversation into halves, one p.o.v. per person?
HOST WPLC Tricia: which adds a certain amount of humor... the Omniscient POV is always a bit ironic, amused and detached.
Nsummers882: main character is a child in the beginning too
HOST WPLC Tricia: And IN Omniscient POV it is perfectly okay to hop-heads from paragraph to paragraph...
LITTLETUX: so do you add those parts with a new paragraph
Nsummers882: so her dad very strong, and her bestfriend
KD et al: good
HOST WPLC Tricia: or even within the same paragraph, although too much head-hopping does get confusing, so you need to try and be judicious.
Nsummers882: Hi cyn
Cyncity 1: hi
Hillwithit: Hi Cyn.
LITTLETUX: i have so much trouble with doing that
HOST WPLC Eagle: Hill, should work as long as it's clear which POV you're in
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Cyn
HOST WPLC Tricia: Omniscient POV is the ONLY POV where head-hopping is permitted...
Suspensewriter: Hi Cyn
Hillwithit: Eagle - good, thanks.
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 12] 2/20/03 09:15 PM
Cyncity 1: omniscient is annoying...hear it called lazy writing all the time
Suspensewriter: I'm not sure I understand, Trish and Eagle... I thought "omniscient" means NO internal POV, or objective... am I wrong?
HOST WPLC Eagle: I prefer third person singular myself
Cyncity 1: i like third person limited, may be the same thing
LITTLETUX: ::::::getting out my grammar study guide::::::::
HOST WPLC Tricia: The drawbacks of Omniscient POV is 1) it is sort of archaic... 2) It creates a distance from the reader... everything is filtered through the "narrator's" viewpoint... the reader never gets to know characters well.
Nsummers882: Im not sure which one I do help???
Suspensewriter: I prefer third person multiple
Hillwithit: Yes, could we get short examples of "Omniscent P.O.V." and also "normal"(?) P.O.V. etc.?
HOST WPLC Tricia: Which can be effective if you are into irony...
Braguine: Both reading and writing I prefer third person limited
KD et al: LittleTux- Me too! LOL
Cyncity 1: suspense...i think you do third person limited
Cyncity 1: you stay within one pov per scene
HOST WPLC Eagle: Cyn, it is, but I change POVs throughout the story staying in 3rd limited for each scene
Cyncity 1: yes..then we're talking about the same thing
HOST WPLC Tricia: Here is a short example of Omniscient...
KD et al: Would the answers regarding head hopping apply also to short stories? OR only novels?
Suspensewriter: Not exactly, Cyn... but good subject, let's discuss that later
HOST WPLC Tricia: "Taking her out was like taking a final exam. Pete knew he was failing, but he couldn't figure out why.
LITTLETUX: ahhhhh okay
LITTLETUX: thank y9ou
HOST WPLC AWeiss: I might try third person omniscent POV with what I wrtie next, sounds interesting. And may help me get over my third person POV block.
HOST WPLC Tricia: He kept bumbling along, trying to impress Nora with his sensitivity, NEVER GUESSING THAT NORA WAS MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE WITH BEER-AND-FOOTBALL TYPES. SHE HAD GROWN UP WITH BROTHERS.... "
HOST WPLC Eagle: I think you can use 3rd person limited with only one POV throughout an entire book or you can use it for several characters as long as you don't skip from one to another without a line break
HOST WPLC Tricia: Then it goes on to be in Nora's head.... what her brothers were like etc....
Cyncity 1: that's also author intrusion, isn't it?
Suspensewriter: Guys, what if you change POV within each scene by inserting some sort of mark showing your changing? And how do we define scene?
Cyncity 1: that's my understanding too eagle
HOST WPLC Tricia: As I said... everything is filtered through the "narrator's" mind....
Cyncity 1: show the pov switch
HOST WPLC Tricia: The caps indicate the POV switch.... it goes on to say...
Nsummers882: So what if your using the he said she said
Cyncity 1: suspense...all you need is ### or *** or an extra space to tell the reader there's a pov switch
Nsummers882: then line filtering would not apply
Suspensewriter: Cyn, I sometimes indicate POV switches within scene... I don't know if that occurs in anything of mine that you read, though
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Not all the time Ns, I've seen that with first person POV too.
HOST WPLC Tricia: She had often told her friends that all but six of her bones had been broken in childhood, she could not remember a time when she didn't have a cast on some part of her body..."
HOST WPLC Eagle: I find it helpful to begin scenes with the POV character's Name
LITTLETUX: so basically it is a matter of preference.........just consistancy?
HOST WPLC Tricia: The above is all in the same paragraph...
Nsummers882: Im not using 1st person but have sev. characters in a chapter and found it was only way I could do it
LITTLETUX: hi jack
HOST WPLC Eagle: TUX usually, but omnicient is hard to pull off well
Cyncity 1: agree eagle...let the reader know whose head we're in
Nsummers882: Hi jack
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Jack
Hillwithit: Yo, Jack.
Jackatbrun: Everning, Tux, all.
Braguine: Changin pov during scene example: Harry stood thinking his boss was wrong, they shook hands and Harry left #
LITTLETUX: cyn i can see that......
Suspensewriter: I use *** but that is sometimes WITHIN a scene
HOST WPLC Tricia: Okay...to back up....
LITTLETUX: ahh brag you have pinpointed my sin LOL
KD et al: wow this is a lot of stuff and confusing..
HOST WPLC Eagle: Suspence, a scene can have more than one POV as long as you break between them
Cyncity 1: that's okay suspense
Braguine: George watched Harry stomp out of the bar. Tha man is in deep trouble, thought
Suspensewriter: Eagle, yes, that's what I'm saying
Cyncity 1: just don't hop from head to head without letting the reader know
HOST WPLC Eagle: A lot of my scenes are made up of 3 or four people's view of the same event
Suspensewriter: Exactly, Cyn
HOST WPLC Eagle: but they are clearly indicated
Suspensewriter: So, what is the definition of multple v. limited POV?
Jackatbrun: Jay, still sounds like a lot of POVs to cope with.
LITTLETUX: ahhhhhh Jim will be so happy you explained this to me in simple terms tricia LOL
HOST WPLC Eagle: Jack, not if it works
Cyncity 1: limited means one per scene or section of a scene...like you do
HOST WPLC Tricia: Actuually, Cyn it is preferable to change POV characters at chapter breaks... or at scene breaks... it takes longer to write, but it is less unsettling for the reader.
Jackatbrun: True, but why put the reader through all that back and forth.
SusanIs: Hi
LITTLETUX: :::::love when a light bulb, shines above my head:::::::
KD et al: Eagle, I used to do that, and then I saw that they made a TV show using that same technique.
Cyncity 1: agree tricia, but there are exceptions and suspense has one
HOST WPLC Eagle: people see events differently and so do characters
SusanIs: Topic?
HOST WPLC Tricia: One reason, Suspense, that this subject is so difficult, is that nobody can agree on what the TERMS mean.
Nsummers882: I changed into and made a whole chapter when the Dad was thinking about somthing that happened a few days before
Suspensewriter: My agent told me: "Handling multiple POV is very difficult, doing it well is even more difficult, and you do it very well."
SusanIs: That's good
LITTLETUX: lucky you suspense
Suspensewriter: So, what is the definition of lawful multiple POV?
SusanIs: I do first person POV, always
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Yes
HOST WPLC Eagle: I do not mean different POVs for the same PART of a scene - I mean sequential POV changes
Braguine: Good show suspense
Nsummers882: yes suspense
Suspensewriter: Oh, okay, Eagle, I think we're on the same page then... or same POV
HOST WPLC Tricia: Lawful multiple would be when you change POV at chapter or scene breaks OR you leave a line space before changing within a scene...
Nsummers882: lol
SusanIs: Anyone else do first person?
Cyncity 1: not brave enough susan...lol
HOST WPLC Eagle: I have not yet learned how to handle 1st person and omnicient confuses me evewn when someone else uses it
LITTLETUX: i'm not sure anymore
Harterone: me, some
HOST WPLC AWeiss: I do first person.
Cyncity 1: that seems very difficult to me
HOST WPLC Tricia: Although you should probably take care not to do it too often...within a scene... one limitation of third limited is that it IS limited...
SusanIs: It's the only one I feel TOTALLY comfortable with
Suspensewriter: Susan, I did first person on a mystery I didn't do much in trying to get published
Hillwithit: Eagle - I agree - I can listen to God or Man but not both jabbering away at me.
SusanIs: My crime novel is first person
LITTLETUX: lol hill
HOST WPLC Tricia: You should not treat third limited as if it were omniscient in wolf's clothing.
SusanIs: from POV of intended victim
HOST WPLC Eagle: Tricia, of course not
HOST WPLC AWeiss: From POV of the narrator
Cyncity 1: well put tricia!
LITTLETUX: :::::::looking to jack for humor::::::::::
Suspensewriter: Trish, great way of putting
Suspensewriter: it
HOST WPLC Tricia: One thing about First Person, is that the person has had to survive to tell the tale....
SusanIs: Well, mine is told present tense
SusanIs: So you don't really know
Cyncity 1: first person, present tense...wow
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Not really, look at Lovely Bones, that's first person, from someone who is dead.
Hillwithit: Tricia - I'm afraid I need example of each term as you go - maybe others do, if not, it's just me. Any chance you could introduce a term about POV, then define and give an example as you go?
SarahStNy: I'm writing in first person
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Mine is present tense too
HOST WPLC Tricia: With first person... your story is told at the distance of time... in order to tell the story the POV character has had to have survived the action...
SusanIs: I love first person
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 16] 2/20/03 09:30 PM
SusanIs: Reading it as well
SusanIs: Good example is...In The Cut
Jackatbrun: If you're looking for an excellent discussion of pov, see John Gardner's The Art of Fiction. It's available just about everywhere.
KeytapperTwo: Agatha Christy wrote a mystery (redundant) in 1st person and it turned out that the person telling the tale was the killer
SusanIs: Which is also 1st person present tense
HOST WPLC AWeiss: So do I, I seem to have an easy time wirting it.
KD et al: Yes, I like first person too, in some cases.
HOST WPLC Tricia: The POV character has to have a reason to tell this story....
Suspensewriter: Falling Angel (forgot author) was like that, Key
SusanIs: Anyone read In The Cut?
HOST WPLC Tricia: One word about present tense... unless you are a wildly popular published writer... or have
HOST WPLC Tricia: literary pretensions, present tense is hard reading, and is an experimental form for the most
HOST WPLC Tricia: part... there is a REASON why most popular fiction is written in Third Person POV... Limited.
HOST WPLC Tricia: PAST TENSE
SusanIs: Well, guess I have literary pretensions
SusanIs: I was taught write what works best for you
Suspensewriter: I think present tense is annoying and pretentious when used throughout a whole novel... at least very tricky to make it come across right
Hillwithit: Suspense - ditto.
SarahStNy: []
Harterone: agree .. little goes a long way
HOST WPLC Tricia: Present tense irritates me...I can't read it... reads like a screen-play...
KD et al: Why is it pretension if that is how a particular story happens to want to be written, ie present tense.
SusanIs: Thanks KD
KD et al: But then, I am talking short story, not a whole book..
Jackatbrun: Susan, we all have the problem: we write for ourselves and love to read ourselves. As long as we never want to publish, that's all she wrote.
SarahStNy: it is extremely difficult to pull off
HOST WPLC Tricia: It depends on whether or not you wish to have the story/book published...
SusanIs: Well, the book DID get an agent
HOST WPLC Tricia: GMTA Jack
Hillwithit: KD - for the same reason anything else in life might seem pretentious (of someone else!) -- sure it works for them, but the rest of us sort of groan and think "gimme a large personal break..."
SarahStNy: I think the Dress Lodger was present tense, but multiple POV and a rather strange style.
LITTLETUX: will you give and example of present tense please tricia
HOST WPLC Tricia: Generally speaking... GENERALLY.... present tense is not a readily marketable commodity...
HOST WPLC Tricia: "I go to the bar, and I say... gimme another tequila..."
SarahStNy: I go to the store and pick up the paper. I see my friend.
SusanIs: Last book I read was also present tense
LITTLETUX: thank you
HOST WPLC Tricia: that was present tense.
KD et al: Same question again- is all the advice tonight also applicable to short stories, or only novels?
Hillwithit: "He writes in the pretentious present tense. He is happy. He mails off his novel that is written that way. He watches the mailbox. He finally gets a rejection letter and a small scorpion enclosed."
SusanIs: Not ALL present tense is like that
Jackatbrun: The point of view can also affect enormous differences in psychic distance. The following examples, from Gardner, go from a star's view of the scene to within the skin of the person.
LITTLETUX: lol hil
SusanIs: Oh, please!
HOST WPLC Tricia: I mostly am talking about novels, KD.... it is easier to get away with off-beat in SS.
Harterone: hill lol. mine was powdered
Jackatbrun: !) It was winter of the yar 1853. A large man stepped out of a doorway.
Jackatbrun: 2) Henry J. Warburton had never much cared for snowstorms.
Jackatbrun: 3) Henry hated snowstorms.
KD et al: ok, Host Tricia, so some of the advice might not apply to SS then right?
Jackatbrun: 4) God how he hated these damn snowstorms.
LITTLETUX: thank you jack
KD et al: LOL
KD et al: Good job
Jackatbrun: 5) Snow. Under your collar, down inside your shoes, freezing and plugging up your miserable soul....
HOST WPLC Tricia: Well, it applies in most cases, but if you wish to experiment, a SS is the place to do it.... tales too long to write a whole novel... that may or may not....
HOST WPLC Tricia: tales=takes
HOST WPLC AWeiss: What about second person POV. I know it's not used much, but it might be fun to have a book where 'you say and then she sasy that' for example
HOST WPLC AWeiss: say[]
Hillwithit: AWeiss -worse.
KD et al: Ok, thank you []
Suspensewriter: Went to a workshop a couple years ago and this woman conducting it pubished a YA in present tense and I couldn't get her or her group of sycophants to understand it would flow better in past tense
HOST WPLC Tricia: second personPOV is also a failed experiment...used mostly for how-to stuff... and that is exactly what a whole novel written in second person sounds like...a lecture.
HOST WPLC AWeiss: The only novel I ever read like that was bright Lights, Big City
SarahStNy: that is the most hideous
Hillwithit: The problem I have with the rare "second person" thing is that as I'm reading "You wake up and light a cigarette" -- I'm thinking, no I don't, I don't smoke, don't tell me I do - etc.
HOST WPLC AWeiss: I see. It is hard to read it
Suspensewriter: lol Hill
SusanIs: I wrote an essay in 2nd person
HOST WPLC Tricia: Jack... the examples you gave from Gardiner are what I call 1) cinematic 2) toe-dipping and 3) full immersion
Hillwithit: Susan - essays are very different than novels.
SarahStNy: it is also impersonal
Suspensewriter: 2nd tense works in something gritty, like Fight Club or Bright LIghts
SusanIs: Well, there was a novel in 2nd person
SusanIs: Less Than Zero?
LITTLETUX: what was that book again jack?
Nsummers882: hi reck
SusanIs: Bright Lights, that was it
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Bright Lights, Big City
Jackatbrun: Trish, he continues that psychic distance has to be controlled intelligently.
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Hi Rec
Hillwithit: Yo, Reck-nah!!!
KD et al: Hello Recknor
SusanIs: Didn't do too badly
Recknor: Hey, Nsum, AW, and Hill!
Jackatbrun: Sometimes you have to back off to breathe.
LITTLETUX: was it james gardiner
HOST WPLC Tricia: In Third Person Limited POV... you are limited to one head at a time... and then you can decide what distance you want to be from the action...
Recknor: Hi, KD
SarahStNy: lol Jack (second person)
KD et al: Jackat- that sounds interesting but can you explain more what it means? What did he mean by that? I dont get it..
SusanIs: Ivan is using The New York Times as a tablecloth again. I never get to read it anymore without seeing jelly stains, big blobs of coffee and buttery fingerprints blotting out connecting words, smearing print.
HOST WPLC Tricia: If you choose cinematic..there is quite a bit of distance... it is a cool rational
HOST WPLC Tricia: thing... the clues you give the reader are all pretty "visual" the reader must
HOST WPLC Tricia: interpret the visual clues.. and if the reader misinterprets... that is their look-out...
HOST WPLC Tricia: There are no "interior" clues such as interior monologue or "felt" or "smelled"
SusanIs: "I wish you wouldn't do that," I tell him. "I have place mats." "It's my paper."
SusanIs: Anyone intrigued?
HOST WPLC Eagle: would be interesting if the smeared print added a new slant to the story
KD et al: I havent heard of that one- cinematic.
SusanIs: Well, that's first lines
Hillwithit: Susan, apart from the present tense style, yes, and it's good writing.
Suspensewriter: Susan, what's that from?
SusanIs: My novel
KD et al: Really? I was going to say no. But what do I know.
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 16] 2/20/03 09:45 PM
Suspensewriter: I like it, because it's pithy it works in 2nd person
HOST WPLC Tricia: Toe-dipping goes into the character a bit more... when the cool narrator backs off a bit
HOST WPLC Tricia: and you get a sense of the interior reactions of the character.... as in "She looked in his
HOST WPLC Tricia: direction, her toe tapped on the pavement....(narrator...cinematic..) What the hell was
SusanIs: Very pithy
HOST WPLC Tricia: she thinking now? (Interior thought POV character)
HOST WPLC Tricia: Like I said KD... the terms need to be defined better....
Jackatbrun: KD, if you look at the examples 1-5, the distance btn the reader and the character is least in 5, most in 1, right?
Suspensewriter: I'm sorry, Susan, I meant to say present tense
Suspensewriter: not 2nd person
SusanIs: Anyone want a couple more lines?
Jackatbrun: If you are always inside a person's skin, the experience gets old fast.
Suspensewriter: Susan, yes, fire away!
SusanIs: Promise not to put all 240 pages, LOL
LITTLETUX: Jack what was the title of the book again by gardiner?
HOST WPLC Tricia: That is what I call full immersion, Jack..
HOST WPLC Tricia: And all three or five distances can be used in the same work....
Jackatbrun: But read Poe's Cask of Amantillado, a classic of closeness to the danger and panic, while occasionally backing off to provide a breath here and there.
Jackatbrun: Tux, the Art of Fiction.
HOST WPLC Tricia: Full immersion can be a strain for the reader... it is too intense for 300 pages
LITTLETUX: thank you jack
Suspensewriter: Jack, I love Poe, but he's difficult sometimes
SusanIs: Ivan is too argumentative lately, too quick to respond and not just with words any more. Silence is better. At least when we're not at each other's throats I can still appreciate what attracted me to him
Jackatbrun: Suspense, it's the best kind of "difficult" in literature.
Jackatbrun: all literature.
SarahStNy: intriguing Susan
KD et al: Thank you Jackat. That sounds like very good information. And clear. thanks.
Jackatbrun: No one wrote short stories like Poe.
Suspensewriter: Jack, so true
LITTLETUX: :never more:
Jackatbrun: Suspense, why "difficult"?
KeytapperTwo: but like Poe, it helps to be a little crazy to do it well
KD et al: Full immersion is too intense for that long? Why?
SusanIs: "I forgot to tell you," Ivan says, "some one called you last night before you got home." "Who?" "He didn't say." The he hums around the room like a menacing insect
SusanIs: Okay, that's it
SusanIs: (For now)
HOST WPLC AWeiss: That's great Sus
Recknor: Very good, Susan!
Suspensewriter: Jack, Poe's prose are dense
SusanIs: Thanks
HOST WPLC Tricia: Because you are pretty much always in the character's body and mind... there is no breathing room... everything is intense..felt, thought, smelled...etc.
SarahStNy: yes intriguing
Hillwithit: Susan, why not? : Ivan was too argumentative lately, too quick to respond and not just with words any more. Silence was better. At least when we weren't at each others throats I was still able toappreciate what attracted me to him.
SusanIs: The he who called is stalking the narrator
Suspensewriter: Ever read "Analysis of Maelzel's Chess Player"?
KD et al: But isnt that one of the purposes of a novel?
Suspensewriter: So wonderful, but so so densely prosacic
HOST WPLC Eagle: If I stayed in one POV for an entire book I'd bore myself into a major writers block
SusanIs: No, I'm sticking with present tense
HOST WPLC Tricia: It is ONE of the purposes of a novel, not the ONLY purpose...
Jackatbrun: Poe's prose is a lesson in tight writing and active verbs.
KD et al: Right, ok
Harterone: Jack...champion of active verbs
Rdpelleg: I don't think Poe even had that in mind when he wrote
Jackatbrun: Suspense, lol, that's why they call it "litrature."
HOST WPLC Tricia: If you stay in full immersion for the whole novel... certain less important scenes are given importance over and above what they need....
Jackatbrun: Hart*
Suspensewriter: Ah, I see... "lit'ry"
HOST WPLC Tricia: the reader for whom we are writing, become exhausted... and there is no "texture" to the novel.. it is like a movie that is one long car chase....
Suspensewriter: Literature doesn't have to be dense, but dense prose can still be literature, but I prefer something a little more... um, less dense?
HOST WPLC Tricia: readers become/reader becomes
Rdpelleg: I really don't like James Joyce
HOST WPLC Tricia: sorry about that
Rdpelleg: however I do like Lorrie Moore
Suspensewriter: <--wishes he could go back in time and tell him, "Hey, Edgar, like, lighten up."
Rdpelleg: Why? It wouldn;t make him a master of literature
KD et al: Can someone give me an example of dense prose?
Rdpelleg: If there was no Poe
Recknor: Tell him "Just say no" on the drugs, while you're at it, Suspense.
Rdpelleg: there would be no
SarahStNy: well he was depressed...lol
KeytapperTwo: <<wishes she could go back in time and tell Dickens to get to the point....now that is ego
Rdpelleg: Stephen King
Rdpelleg: or H.G. Wells
Jackatbrun: Ah, the intense prose is considered in all of his short stories. The subject is therefore intense and scary. King is a BIG fan of Poe's.
Rdpelleg: Who wouldn't be
HOST WPLC Tricia: But, Suspense, he was writing in his time... and people who read were probably better
HOST WPLC Tricia: eddicated than they are now... a normal school curriculum included Greek and Latin, I
HOST WPLC Tricia: believe.... Poe's audience was more familiar with words...
Suspensewriter: Reck, LOL!
SusanIs: Have a good night []
HOST WPLC Eagle: Keytapper - Dickens was serialized and getting paid by the column inch
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Night Sus
Suspensewriter: Trish, I understand that
Recknor: Night, Susan
SusanIs: G'night
Rdpelleg: Hawthorne, I believed was overlooked
Nsummers882: night susan
Recknor: And besides, I actually LIKE Dickens. <G>
Suspensewriter: But, Reck, there is some controversy about Poe actually using opium
KD et al: What is dense prose?
Jackatbrun: Reck, me too, but I doubt if he would get published today, without the name.
HOST WPLC Eagle: it's easy to get wordy when you're getting paid by the word
HOST WPLC Tricia: I like Dickens as well... his characters are priceless... so priceless they have become stereotypes...
Suspensewriter: And even a theory Poe was possibly murdered
Rdpelleg: Actually I heard he had rabies
Recknor: I doubt that most 19th century authors would be pubbed today in this MTV enviornment.
SarahStNy: by whom Sus?
Nsummers882: I heard about that suspense
HOST WPLC Tricia: I would think Poe wrote dense prose... KD... ask Suspense or Jack...
HOST WPLC Tricia: they coined the phrase
Hillwithit: KD - "dense prose" is when a writer is too dense to ever research or worry about the marketplace or the reader the writing is intended to please.
HOST WPLC Tricia: LOL Hill....
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Maybe Jane Austin though, her story Emma became the film Cluless, and it was a hit on MTV
Jackatbrun: Like F. Scott Fitzgerald. If you want to see someone break POV rules, go to google and write in "Bernice Bobs her Hair," a Fitz short story on line.
KD et al: Reck, I agree
Hillwithit: Reck - T Time Dickens, dog, get down...
HOST WPLC Tricia: but curiously resonant
HOST WPLC Eagle: in the 19th century books and theater were all the rage and everybody wanted to appear "cultured"
Recknor: Yo, KD and Hill. <G>
HOST WPLC AWeiss: Clueless[]
KeytapperTwo: Yet 10-12 year olds are reading Lord of the Rings....complicated reading for a generation of MTV kids
Jackatbrun: He uses a god-like, omniscient POV.
Recknor: Right, Eagle.
KeytapperTwo: So, if you write it well......they will read it
HOST WPLC Eagle: remember, Dicken's stories were the 19th century's soap operas
Nsummers882: It was the kids of the 80s that got messed up
Rdpelleg: What is wrong with that Key, those three books are well written
KD et al: Thank you for that non definition Hill
Harterone: you know, Dickens wasn't the only writer of that time. Wonder who his competition was?
HOST WPLC Eagle: readers waitied at the depot for the monthly installment
KeytapperTwo: Rdp...yes...my point exactly. People underestimate the readers out there
Rdpelleg: Tolken reminded me of Shakespeare
Hillwithit: KD - thank you for that non-thank you.
Recknor: Now, kiddies...
HOST WPLC Eagle: Harterone, the guy who invented the Penny Dredfulls
Rdpelleg: I don't like Science Fiction but I do love Ray Bradbury
HOST WPLC Eagle: dime novels and the wild wild west
Jackatbrun: To rewrite Dickens and rid his prose of "to be" verbs would sound like: "The best times obtained; the worst times obtained...." Just doesn't make it: "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times...."
Recknor: Bradbury is one of the very best.
HOST WPLC Tricia: Final word on POV (FOR TONIGHT) : There is no right or wrong POV... they all have their limitations and their advantages... but POV can make or break a novel. So choose wisely, for YOUR story.
Log Entry: Writers Den [Members - 17] 2/20/03 10:00 PM
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