Crop Circle Update - FIELD OF SCHEMES I

 Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic

From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen)

Subject: FILE: MUFON article - Field of Schemes - Crop circles

Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:04:14 GMT

Message-ID: <1993Feb11.040414.7851@bilver.uucp>

Lines: 860

(7063)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:18

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS 1/9

St:                                                                       7174>

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          MUFONET-BBS GROUP  -  MUFONET-BBS NETWORK

         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   COORDINATED INFORMATION EXCHANGE - HOUSTON UFO NETWORK

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The following article originally appeared in the January '93

HUFON Report, the newsletter of the Houston UFO Network.

Article provided by HUFON for posting by The MufoNet-BBS

Network.

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           Crop Circle Update - FIELD OF SCHEMES I

                       By Bill Eatwell

In the November 1992 issue of the Mufon UFO Journal, there

is an article by Jim Schnabel titled, "Confessions Of A Crop

Circle Spy". Well, as always, there is more to this story

than is being published. For one thing, there are alleged

inaccuracies in Schnabel's telling of his side of an

a recorded telephone interview that was to be published in

the journal of the Centre For Crop Circle Studies known as

The Circular which is edited by George Wingfield. The

interview was mysteriously pulled from the magazine before

distribution.

In October, while attending George Wingfield's Dallas, Texas

lecture (see HUFON Report, Nov., 1992 issue), George gave

me, in strict confidence, a copy of the Schnabel interview

that had been pulled.  George told me that his publisher in

England, Michael Green, had pulled the interview from

publication while he was on his lecture tour here in

America.

I was told to "sit" on my copy unless given the go ahead to

publish the suppressed interview in the HUFON Report if

George was unable to resolve the problem when he returned to

England.  On Saturday,(12/5) I received a call from a friend

alerting me that a new publication in Dallas, the Texas

Mufon Newsletter, had just published George's suppressed

interview.

I immediately called George in England and asked permission

to reprint the same article in  HUFON Report.  I not only

got the OK, but received the next day, by fax a copy of

George's soon to be published reply to the above Journal

article by Schnabel.  Since not all HUFON members subscribe

to the Mufon UFO Journal, I will carefully summarize

Schnabel's article below. Included in this Crop Circle

Update are both the suppressed interview, and George's faxed

reply to Schnabel's article which should appear in the

December Mufon UFO Journal. According to George, the

following (suppressed) interview was made and recorded by

Dr. Armen Victorian (AKA: Henry Azadehdel, Dr. Alan Jones,

and for this interview, Cassava Ntumba). George says that

there was no time lapse between Victorian's prior call to a

Robert Irving, and Jim Schnabel.  Why is this important?

Because, Schnabel claims that Irving called him to warn of

Victorian's question line and the two of them conspired to

lead Victorian, as Ntumba, down the old proverbial false

disinformation trail.

George also told me that someone (he knows who) sent a copy

of the "pulled" interview to Schnabel so he could fashion a

quick cover story and, somehow, persuade the Mufon UFO

Journal to print it.  After you have read the following, I

will have more at the end.....

THE SUPPRESSED CIRCULAR INTERVIEW

Subject of The Circular interview in this issue is Jim

Schnabel.   He has written several newspaper articles on the

circles beginning with an item in the Washington Post last

year which espoused the cause of orthodox Meadenism. More

recently he collaborated with Robert Irving to produce a

piece for the Independent Magazine in which it was implied

that many of the major pictograms in the mid-Wiltshire area

were hoaxed by the UBI group.  Although UBI has faked a few

minor formations (of which CCCS has full details)

suggestions of major hoaxing by them --at, say, Alton

Barnes--are known to be untrue and this article can only be

seen as part of Schnabel and Irving's campaign to make

people think that the pictograms are all hoaxes and promote

the highly dubious claims of Doug & Dave.

Unlike Doug & Dave, Schnabel is an accomplished circlefaker

and in July he came second in The Cerealogist's Circlemaking

Competition at West described then as the "Master of

Grapeshot," he did not deny having had previous circlemaking

experience.

Ostensibly Schnabel is a student doing a post-graduate

course in sociology at Bath University. Despite this his

telephone number is on the Oxford exchange and his address

in Bath (where Robert Irving lives) is secret.  He usually

gives his address as c/o Lincoln College, Oxford, although

at the beginning of l992 Lincoln College stated that

Schnabel no longer had any connection with them.

Continued.....

--- FMail 0.92

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(7054)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:19

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS, 2/9

St:                                                                       7055>

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In the following candid interview Schnabel reveals his role

as a paid disinformation agent working for an unnamed

western inrelligence organisation.  From what he says, one

is made aware of the extent and determination of the

continuing campaign to rubbish the circles and discredit the

researchers. This campaign is but a continuation of the Doug

& Dave scam with different faces, different players.

The "interviewer" in this case is Armen Victorian, who has

written for The Circular previously and who introduces

himself as Kasaba Ntumba.  Unaware of Ntumba's true

identity, Schnabel gradually opens up to this apparently

sympnthetic caller.

It is only fair to say that Schnabel now denies everything

which is contained herein and telephoned me some days later

in a state of scarcely suppressed agitation to claim that he

had just been ~winding up ~ Victorian (whom he had never met

or talked to, apart from a very brief introductory phone

call a short while before on the same day). Readers of The

Circular will have to judge for themselves whether or not

this is the case.

One may justifiably ask why someone would ever reveal well-

hidden secrets to a total stranger at such short notice. I

can only say that Victorian has achieved similar coups time

and again in speaking, by telephone to top intelligence

officers in the U.S.A., in South Africa and in other

countries and these people have frequently regretted what

they have let slip.  If Schnabel had been "winding up"

Victorian, it is inconceivable that he would then ring me up

and come clean. Apart from anything else he never normally

calls me, and of all the hoaxes I 've known --not just

circular ones-- no hoaxer has ever once sprung forward

saying "it's all a hoax, don't believe a word I just said."

Double bluff? Well, if you believe that, you'll believe

anything !

The acid test, of course, is the tape recording itself

rather than the transcript. Listen to this and, as with the

recent "Dianagate" tapes, one soon discards the notion that

the responses are contrived or false. It is to be regretted

that information has been obtained in this way but in the

face of a ruthless and sustained campaign to deceive the

public and CCCS this is amply justified.

For people who scoff at the idea that intelligence agencies

have any interests  in the circles phenomerlon, I can only

say that when in Washington, D. C., last April I was taken

specifically tomeet four charming gentlemen from the CIA who

made no secret about their profession and also their

interest in the circles and the UFO phenomenon. This is

entirely consistent with the content of this interview.

Continued.....

--- FMail 0.92

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(7055)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:20

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS, 3/9

St:                                                                  7054<>7056

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@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924994

[Telephone rings]

Sch: Hello.

Vic: Mr Schnabel?

Sch: Yes.

Vic: This is Mr Ntumba.

Sch: Oh, hi. Hallo.

Vic: I'm sorry to bother you at Ihis time of the night. I

     was...now then, I was speaking to your friend.

Sch: Sorry?

Vic: I was, I was speaking to your friend a few hours ago,

     Mr Robert Irving.

Sch: Oh yeah, Rob Irving, yeah.

Vic: Thal's right; and I understand that you won the second

     prize in proving that, eventually, these, eh, circles

     are not reaily what the others think are made by 7-feet

     green men. And they are very much in an earth bound

     situation.

Sch: Yes, yes, I wouldn't have to prove anything really.

Vic: My congratulations - [laughs] - you did a good job.

Sch: Thank you very much, thank you very much.

Vic: Have you published anything?

Sch: Yes, eh, I have published a few things....

Vic: In magazines or newspapers - or private or..   ?

Sch: Well, yeah, I published something just this past

     weekend.

Vic: Ah!

Sch: In the Independent Magazine - that was a collaboration

     with....

Vic: Hey! You have an American accent!

Sch: Sorry?

Vic: You have an American accent.

Sch: Yes, I'm originally from the States, that's true.

Vic: Which part?

Sch: I'm from the East Coast.

Vic: East Coast. New York part?

Sch: In Virginia.

Vic: Virginia, a beautiful part of the country.

Sch: Yes it is, thank you very much.

Vic: Beautiful part of the country. One thing. . . One thing

     that Mr Irving said to me that I was a bit puzzled. He

     said that he works at a group of intelligence . . ., or

     something like that.

Sch: Oh, he did?

Vic: He did.

Sch: [Laughs] He, um...

Vic: When?

Sch: He sometimes, eh. . ., says things that he shouldn't

     say, but, eh...

Vic: What? Did he work genuinely with an intelligence...

Sch: Sorry - say that again.

Vic: Did he actually work with intelligence in the past?

Sch: Well, I really couldn't comment on anything like that.

     I mean I think you'd have to ask him.

Vic: ' Cos he was saying to me that - you know...What did he

     say to me?...  It was something that mystified me, to

     be perfectly honest with you. Eh, you know, he said

     that it pays, you know, that exactly what, you know, he

     said to me, to do what he is doing, and he works with a

     western intelligence... , he said to me.

Sch: Yeah.

Vic: And he said that man doesn't live on bread alone.

Sch: Yeah, well, you know, I really couldn't comment on any

     of that, I mean, ...eh....

Vic: Do you know, if that's the case that he is actually

     working with.. ?

Sch: Well, I wouldn't want to say anything on the record

     obviously.

Vic: [Laughs.] Well I don't blame you, can I? But I mean is

     he. .?  What I'm trying to say is you know....Look,

     you've handled these cases for several....sometimes

     people say things, as you've said yourself.  Is it

     saying it in order to create credence and mystery or

     you know this....?  because if it is the case, it

     backfires doesn't it, because that makes the man...you

     know what I'm trying to say.

Sch: No, I'm not clear

Vic: All I'm saying is....if that's not the case, the man

     doesn't work,.so why is he making all this, you

     know...statements, you see what I'm saying, it makes

     him look, you know, a person who doesn't have any

     credit in his opinion - do you see what I'm trying to

     say?

Continued.....

--- FMail 0.92

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(7056)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:21

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS, 4/9

St:                                                                  7055<>7057

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@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924995

Sch: Well....

Vic: It's like me saying I'm the king.....

Sch: Well, I don't know....

Vic: Well, it's like me claiming....

Sch: I don't know what he has said but I mean he does have

     some connections in....l don't know, but I don't think

     thats something that either of us want to talk about.

Vic: But you know - there is a story...

Sch: I don't quite know who you are, so I don't want to talk

     about it in too much detail.

Vic: No, but I've been reading some of these magazines they

     have issued about groups and these articles about the

     7-feet green men... groups put out that's there's

     intelligence in it, etc., etc., and now Mr Irving says

     that to me. You see I was a bit taken back. Is there

     any interest from the intelligence ,part in it as well?

Sch: Sorry, intelligence....?

Vic: Any interest from the intelligence part in the

     phenomenon?

Sch: Well, does he have an interest in the intelligence? ...

     I'm not sure quite what...

Vic: What I'm trying to tell.... it's my bad English, I'm

     sorry.

Sch: About M15, or are you talking about UFOs?

Vic: Anything...any government intelligence group....

Sch: No, no, it's clear to me now. Yes, well I mean....off

     the record, I mean I think a number of agencies

     throughout the world have taken an interest in this.

Vic: Well, that we've heard, haven't we?

Sch: It is potentially a very explosine phenomenon.

Vic: I mean, can they exploit it, how can they exploit the

     phenomenon?

Sch: Well, I mean, I think...l think some of us are

     concerned that the phenomenon may - it's difficult to

     explain, but....

Vic: Try me!

Sch: We believe there is certainly something very sinister

     about what's going on - eh..., I don't know whether

     you're a Christian man or not....?

Vic:    Christian... of course I am.

Sch: But some of us feel quite....

Vic: I'm a Catholic.

Sch: Well, yes, yes, so am I. And some of us feel concerned

     that, eh....

Vic: Some arms of the government are doing something...

     psychological warfare, or psychotronic weaponry, you

     know.

Sch: We think that sometimes that a little bit of intrigue .

     . sometimes is necessary in cases as serious as this,

     um, and sometimes measures have to be taken, but I

     think, I mean, overall, I think that the phenomenon is

     something which we think will disappear very shortly.

Vic: [Bated breath!!] How, how, how, how, how, how? I mean,

     I'm sorry, but I'm  just curious - it's mind-boggling

     what you're saying!  But how, how do you know that will

     happen?

Sch: [Sigh] Well, we think that it, that people will no

     longer take notice of it, I mean, it may continue but,

     eh, it....

Vic: But why do you say phenomenon? You proved that this is

     man-made, if it's a man-made... how could it be a

     phenomena?  Or am I in the dark, or I've missed

     something somewhere?

Sch: Well, I'm, I'm, I think some of them are definitely

     man-made; I mean definately.

Vic: But, so, but so, we are suggesting that there's also a

     part to it that is genuine?

Sch: I think there is a part which is entirely sinister and

     I'm not sure how genuine it is or whether it's made by

     people but it's something very sinister and I think

     it's something that....

Vic: Are we talking about mugic, dark powers?

Sch: Possibly, yes.. and I think that it...hang on, I'm

     getting a bit. . .

Vic: It' s intriguing, when we say dark powers arewe talking

     about...  sort of Satan and that sort of thing, or are

     we talking about actually....?

Sch: AbsolutelY!

Vic: I see, I see, so there isn't any sort of military

     implication or the test of, of weaponry or anything of

     that sort, which is sinister?

Sch: Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that..    l think it's a

     very complex issue though.......

Vic: Are we talking about the part of the military wing

     who's under the brainwashing, or whatever, of the

     sinister forces who are doing this - you know, making

     it a bit more complex?

Sch: Well, well it's very  difficult to explain to vou -

     to explain the structure of some of these

     organisations, but......

Continued.....

--- FMail 0.92

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(7057)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:21

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS, 5/9

St:                                                                  7056<>7058

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@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924996

Vic: For example? Give me an example.

Sch: Why? I couldn't go into detail but, eh, basically

     it's something which is concerning people worldwide

     and have pooled their resources, worldwide, and are

     involved.....

Vic: How about the British Government? Are they also... ?

Sch: Well, yes. The German Government, the American

     government, the Vatican as well.

Vic: How about Robert? Does Robert have anything with any of

     this to help them along with it, to determine what is

     going on?

Sch: I wouldn't want to comment on the record or anything

     like that.

Vic: Of course not.

Sch: Definitely, you know....as you seem to be sympathetic

     to what we're  saying.....

Vic: Of course! What you're saying makes me worried.

     He is definitely on the good side

Sch: He is.... he is one of our best people, yes.

Vic: And he's helping the governments to determine which

     faction is doing this?

Sch: Yes, it's very... extremely sensitive, sensitive work

     as you can probably imagine.....

Vic: Is it...eh...now, let's see, are we talking about

     military, or are we talking about intelligence, are we

     talking about the negative side, you see what I ' m

     trying to say?

Sch: It's not quite a military thing but there are elements

     of military intelligence which have loaned resources.

Vic. Ahhhh! ! We are talking about people who have had a

     career, they've left their career, they have

     corporations, etc., etc., they are developing some kind

     of weaponry and these are the testing ground.

Sch: No, no, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go into that, it's

     much more of a spiritual warfare type of magic, I

     think....

Vic: And they trying to exploit the populus, I mean, what

     are they trying to achieve? This is what I'm trying to

     determine.

Sch: I think they are trying to bring about changes in world

     consciousness and for evil; for, for, you know, not for

     good and, eh, there are some of us who are concerned

     about this, and would like to see this new trend

     stopped.

Vic: Is there any positive element in the government

     who are supporting people like yourself or Robert or

     anybody else for that mattter?

Sch: We have support, yes, we have support at the highest

     levels.

Vic: That's marvelous -is it British government ....or...

     forgive me, I'm not trying to be a nosy parker.

Sch: It involves several countries and as I say.....

Vic: Are we talking NATO allies or are we talking

     about...........    ?  Sch: NATO ?...it's not at the

     NATO level, but it's Germany involved, and this

     country, and the United States...  the Vatican as well.

Vic: I see...I...   are we talking about...?

Sch: It's actually, it in volves a supernational

     organisation which I will not name.

Vic: [Gasp]Supernational !!!

Sch: Supernational organisation.

Vic: Oh, good God !

Sch: Which is....?

Vic. This is above my head.

Sch: Which has ties to these countries, and organisations.

Vic: Are we talking, for example trilateral, that sort

     of thing?

Sch: I wouldn't want to get into any specifics.

Vic: Do you have any information...'? I'm speculating...

Sch: It's something that is very dangerous to talk about,

     and I hope, you will, you know...

Vic: I appreciate it, I appreciate it...I mean, is it a

     mission that you volunteered or is it something that

     you actually commission people ....I mean how do

     they...?

Sch: It's...we are quite committed to it,

     put it that way. It's not a sense of duty but it's

     also.....

Vic: How about the other religions, does  that come into it

     or is it only Christian religion or just Christians

     committed to it? eh, I mean Buddhism, or Judaism or

     Islam .... you know?

Sch: I don't have a high enough overview of the whole

     situation to know. There may be some others involved.

Vic: And the information that you gather is passed on to the

     higher-ups in order to  be filtered out and deductions

     have to be taken, obviously; that should be the case?

Sch: Yes, yes..     we are not just feeding information, we

     are taking active measures.

Vic: I hope they pay for what you've done, for the time and

     all the things that you put in to it.

Sch: Well, yes...it's only natural that one should be

     reimbursed.

Vic: That goes without saying.

Sch: One has to live, you know.

Vic: That is absolutely true. How many are there? Is there

     any way I can get, sort of, you know, involved?

Sch: Well, I'll tell you, if you can, um, give me some

     information, I understand you would probably want to do

     it on a very confidential level... some information

     or...I could have someone possibly give you a call or

     visit you or something.

Continued.....

--- FMail 0.92

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(7058)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:22

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS, 6/9

St:                                                                  7057<>7059

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@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924997

Vic: Who, who? Is it Mr. Irving who would visit me?

Sch: Oh no, it would not be Mr. Irving, it would not be Mr.

     Irving.  You know ...possibly...

Vic: Are you sure your telephone is not tapped?

Sch: My telephone? [laughs] No,no, my telephone would not be

     tapped! My telephone is a secure phone.

Vic: Give me your address, Mr. Schnabel, please.

Sch: Um, well, ...[hesitation]... all right,

     it's, it's, um.... you can reach me, care of... I have

     to give you a sort of a safe, a safe box...

Vic: Of course!

Sch: . . . because I don't actually live here,

     but it's: c/o Lincoln College.

Vic: LincolnCollege? OK,which school in Lincoln!

Sch: Lincoln College, Oxford.

Vic: Oxford ? Ah ha!

Sch: That's all you need to do, just: care

     of...To Jim Schnabel, c/o Lincoln College, Oxford.

Vic: I would be able to reach you there?

Sch: Yes.

Vic: OK. And if I actually wanted to put anything in it

     I would be hopefully visited by somebody?

Sch: Sorry?

Vic: I would be briefed about how I can start, you know,

     etc., etc.?

Sch: Yes, I mean... if you give me some information........

[This section is intentionally omitted.]

A second call is then made on the following day:

Vic: Mr Schnabel?

Sch: Yes.

Vic: Hello, this is Ntumba speaking. I put something into

     the post for you today.

Sch: Ah, good, good.

Vic: It will be with you if all goes well, hopefully by

     Tuesday - you know how well your mail works...

Sch: No, I think today is a bank holiday,

     so there won't be any mail through.

Vic: Well, I had first class stamps so I did that... Now,

     I remember when this, eh, ******* came here, who...you

     know when you said to me... has been a very good

     source..

there was another man...

Sch: Excuse me, just let me pull the phone into my room here

     to be private.

Vic: OK, of course.

[ Very long pause ensues]

Sch: Yes, right.

Vic: Is it better?

Sch: Yes.

Vic: OK. You remember last time when we were speaking you

     said that, you know, ******* has been a good source

     with regard to promoting the cause.

Sch: Yes, yes.

Vic: I remember that when ******* came here there was also

     another person.

Sch: Yes.

Vic: Do you know who he was?

Sch: His name is #####.

Vic: Ahhhh! He was very quiet. Is he also working in the

     same way?

Sch: I wouldn't want to speak about further things, I mean

     it's extremely sensitive, I really shouldn't have told

     you all that I've told you already...and unfortunately

     at the moment I'm quite busy with some things, but um,

     do send the material and perhaps... l'll tell you

     here's um, a ...I'm trying to think.  Will you ...

     [massive hesitation]l...oh, no, no, if you send the

     material to Lincoln College;   send some indication of

     where you can be reached.

Vic: O.K.

Sch: We can discuss things further, someone else will

     contact you, and eh, it won't be me, it will be a much

     more senior person in the organisation and then

     subsequently, eh, you know, if things work out well and

     more information can be shared with you.

Vic: The reason that I mentioned about that gentleman ...

     because he was talking almost on a similar line, you

     know, that you were talking in many ways... do you see

     what I'm saying?

Sch: I really couldn't comment further on him, I wouldn't

     want to compromise his position.

Vic: I see ! Well, I hope that, you know...that the mission

     will be acomplished and that, you know, after all this

     time.  Has there been any good witness.. ?

Sch: We have no doubt of success.

Vic: Well I'm delighted to hear that.  Now, about the

     payment. How do we claim for the expenses, etc., you

     know, how do we go about this usually?  I mean, how do

     you go about that?

Continued.....

--- FMail 0.92

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------

(7059)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:23

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS, 7/9

St:                                                                  7058<>7060

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924998

Sch: Well, that will be arranged and explained to you if,

     if, if...[mumble, mumble]

Vic: Is it on a monthly basis?

Sch: If you are found to be a suitable candidate -- it's

     extremely generous, don't worry about that.

Vic: OK. You know there is a great deal of travelling

     backward and forward, you know, as you are involved in

     this...

Sch: You will be expected to travel internationally.

Vic: Oh, what .... that's fascinating, that is absolutely

     fascinating.  What sort of data, you know, they would

     be expecting from my side to be gathered, to be

     collected for the cause?  Sch: It woutd be not only

     gathering data but also taking active measures,

     possibly conducting disinformation campaigns and other

     measures.

Vlc: In order to safeguard the initial whatever it is, isn't

     it, the ultimate goal.

Sch: Yes. it's extremely complex, I mean I think you were...

     you touched upon it briefly last night when you

     mentioned the weapon...

Vic: I was very much impressed.....

Sch: The weapons systems, I mean there's the element of the

     weapons testing and there's the second element of the,

     eh, attempt to use the phenomenon of the circles to

     discredit the New Age movement and other such

     movements.

Vic: Ahhhh ! I see.

Sch: It's extremely complex and much more will be explained

     to you if it's appropriate at a further time.

Vic: Of course, of course.....  Sch: Don't worry about

     payment, I mean, it's very generous.....

Vic: No, that's not my worry......

Sch: It's extremely strenuous work and...the organisation

     realises that, um, you know, sometimes people become

     burned out after a few years but usually they've made

     enough money that they are able to retire - you know,

     after a few years anyway.... it's very generous.

VIC: That's facscinating...and the gentleman, or the person

     rather, who would be meeting me should my you know,

     whatever become serious, would he be, or would she be,

     an American or would she be English or different... you

     know?

Sch: I'm not sure yet which organisation, I mean, that's not

     my decision - which person in the organisation, I mean,

     that's not my decision.  It could be someone from

     almost.

Vic: But, but, I mean what is the organisation that I would

     be dealing with?

Sch: Well, I think that will all be explained to you.

Vic: Oh, I see. When, if and when, I'm taken in.

Sch: Yes.

[Break]

Vic: How about Colin Andrews' group - do you have any

     section with a remit in Colin Andrews' group or not?

Sch: We have, eh...we have people in every group.

Vic: Fascinating, fascinating, that's absolutely, you know,

     it's interesting to hear. As I said earlier, the

     machinery is already into the post so the best thing is

     I wait to hear further from you.

Sch: Yes, OK, good

Vic: OK. Thank you very much indeed for your time again.

Sch: God bless.

Vic: God bless you too. Bye bye.

The following summary of "Confession Of A Crop Circle Spy"

by James Schnabel is very brief as the original document in

the November 1992 Mufon UFO Journal is five pages long.

Dennis Stacy, the Journal's Editor, begins the article with

a half page introduction. Stacy's comments center around the

thought process regarding both UFO's and crop circles and

how they are perceived and possible related. Also, he notes

the lessons to be learned when hoaxing, fear of government

agents and conspiracies and, as this article painfully

illuminates, a wide spread paranoia begins to grip all those

individuals who are intimately, and publicly, involved with

both phenomena.

( Note that James Schnabel, by himself, won 2nd prize in the

circle making competition in England, at West Wycome, July

11-12, 1992...He also wrote an article on "The Art of

Circular Science" for The Cerealogist, No.  7, Harvest 1992,

which will be available from the HUFON library in Jan.  93.)

Continued......

--- FMail 0.92

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@PATH: 123/26

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

(7060)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:23

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS, 8/9

St:                                                                  7059<>7061

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924999

James Schnabel begins his article by describing numerous

unnamed crop circle researchers as "vociferous spycriers".

The story that follows is what Schnabel claims happened when

in a light-hearted moment he suggested to an inquirer,

"Cassave Ntumba", that "yes, it was all true, he was indeed

a spy". The phone interviews actually began with Ntumba

calling Rob Irving, a photographer who had worked with

Schnabel on a London newspaper article about one of the

circle-making groups active in Wiltshire. Schnabel says that

Irving recognized Ntumba as Henry Azadehdel, recalling Henry

as the person who authored a story last year about Doug

Bower and Dave Chorley being spies.(remember the Doug and

Dave scam?) Irving reportedly recorded the conversation, and

immediately afterwards called Schnabel and a "spy-chase"

plan was conceived. There were several lengthy phone

conversations between Irving and Ntumba, and Schnabel and

Ntumba. Schnabel summarizes most of these but adds something

to the first conversation that I could not find in the

suppressed interview.  The "Plan", as Schnabel outlines to

Ntumba, "was meant (a) to divert attention from the ultra-

secret Stars Wars weapons testing which caused the circles".

Unless I missed something, this was not in the original text

of the Circular Interview.  As Schnabel unfolds his story,

he begins using single letter references to various

individuals leaving the reader to only "guess" as to their

identity. One example is: "So I telephoned W and asked him

to relay to the elusive zadehdel that the whole thing had

been a send up. I hope-I said-that you have enough sense of

humor to see that this was all done in fun. To which W

responded: well I'm not sure I do, Jim.  I mean, I wouldn't

be in the lease bit surprised if you were a spy". Other

lettered identities in the story are: R, E, G, F, T, D, U, M

and G, C and his good friend B.  The "Plan", as Schnabel

calls it, received much notoriety following the Ntumba

interview.  The worst unmasking according to Schnabel

occurred at the UFO meet at the Leeds Civic Theater, in

England, where Armen Victorian (aka: Ntumba) was to present

taped conversations of international debunkers.  The taped

interview between Victorian and Schnabel was played causing

a confrontation in which Schnabel says he attempted to

convince the audience that it had all been a put-on, a sham.

Schnabel narrates only a portion of the recording in his

story. When I compared the two recorded conversations, some

sentences were not word for word. This indicates editing by

one or the other writer.  Nothing important appeared missing

in the two recorded dialogs.  The story ends with Schnabel

stating his personal feelings of the events, his believed

vindication, and his relief that W's article had been pulled

from the printers, and the article detailing The Plan

removed. However, Irving and Schnabel believe that there

still remains a "hint of unsolved mystery" to their acts as

one question still remains with the cerealogists: "How had

we known so much?"

As you can tell, the crop circle hoaxing issue is about to

come to a nasty head. Personally, I believe that there needs

to be more articles published on those persons doing valid

crop circle research and less on those interfering with the

phenomenon.

I spoke with our new contributor, Rosemary Ellen Guiley and

discovered that she had moved again. A copy of her Center's

report will be sent to me as soon as it is completed.

Meanwhile, Rosemary faxed the following comments for our

latest column.  Her new address, phone and fax numbers are

included for publication per her request.

Center For North American Crop Circle Studies

Director: Rosemary Ellen Guiley

Address: P.O. Box 4766, Lutherville, MD 21094

Phone: 410-628-1522 / Fax: 410-628-1524

December 7, 1992

Rosemary writes:

Far too much attention was devoted this summer in crop

circle circles to allegations concerning disinformation,

conspiracy and hoaxing. Individuals alleged to be the

masterminds of a plot to debunk circles were given more

credit than they deserved by noise made by some

cereologists. The unfortunate result was to shift attention

away from solving the mystery of the phenomenon to focus on

personalities and name calling.

As for the circles themselves, in England they manifested in

as mysterious shapes as before, with the signature of

Goddess stronger than ever: snails, crescent moons, the knot

of Isis (resembling and alpha) and the mu-at, a dumbbell

with crescent that is also a sign of Isis. Overall, the

activity was more low-key than the previous year, with the

media paying scant attention to anything beyond the hoaxing

contest done in July for the amusement of humans.

Continued.....

--- FMail 0.92

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@PATH: 123/26

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

(7061)  Fri 29 Jan 93 18:24

By: John Komar

To: All

Re: HUFON/CROPS, 9/9

St:                                                                       <7060

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

@MSGID: 1:123/26 0e92499a

In the U.S., reported activity also was less that last year,

though reports continue to trickle in to the Center for

North American Crop Circle Studies (CNACCS). Illinois was

once again one of the more active states. The most dramatic

formation was a dumbbell in alfalfa near Fergus Falls,

Minnesota. More detailed reports will be available soon from

CNACCS and the North American Institute for Crop Circle

Research in Winnepeg.

In closing, one final comment. An unusual bit of movement

has occurred with two of the original English crop circle

researchers. It is being called the "grain drain" by

Rosemary Ellen Guiley. Seems that both Colin Andrews and

Richard Andrews (no relation) have moved their crop circle

business to America. Do they know something no one else

knows?

Stay tuned.

=END=

--- FMail 0.92

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@PATH: 123/26

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