UFO/Alien message board part 5

       |with SUSAN SONTAG!!
grante@aquarius.rosemount.com                 |
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From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence
Date: 28 Jul 1992 02:27:05 GMT
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Message-ID: <l79c3pINNih7@news.bbn.com>
References: <1992Jun14.192328.11396@cco.caltech.edu>
  <1992Jun15.000927.14468@uwm.edu> <1992Jun15.143917.16445@rhrk.uni-kl.de>
  <1992Jun16.014515.24059@uwm.edu> <62931@cup.portal.com>
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In-reply-to: John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com's message of 27 Jul 92 23:59:04 GMT

In article <62931@cup.portal.com> John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com writes:

   Part 2. J. has two friends that want to get in on this. Their names are
   Allen and Bill.  Some people may wonder how I'm going to get from one
   place to another so fast. This Astral Convoy will be traveling at the
   speed of thought.

Using what stimulants or depressants?

-30-
Bob

``Oh, we've got a great big convoy...''
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <1992Jul27.215024.1@indyvax.iupui.edu>
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References: <1992Jul22.213112.1@indyvax.iupui.edu> <7697@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> <1992Jul25.004507.1@indyvax.iupui.edu>
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:50:24 -0500

In article <1992Jul25.004507.1@indyvax.iupui.edu>, tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
> In article <7697@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>, mitch@seashell.seas.ucla.edu (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
>> In article <1992Jul22.213112.1@indyvax.iupui.edu> tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
>>>To heck with how the Pleiadians ships work or how fast they go. HOW DID
>>>THEY EVOLVE SO DARN FAST?  The Pleiades are bright young stars still
>>>within their nebular cocoon.  They are along the order of millions of
>>>years old.  It took life on Earth more than 4 billion years to evolve
>>>to the point where it could walk upright, talk, and dream silly dreams.
>>>Are the Pleidians child prodigies?  Btw the first prokaryotes didn't
>>>evolve here until a billion years or so after the formation of Earth.
>>>Thomas Freebairn
>>
>> I think the New Age Crystalbabble party line is that the
>> Pleiadians were seeded by an elder race; they did not originally
>> evolve in what is now their home system. 
>

>  Yes?
Okay, okay.  I was sleepy and being a smartass when I wrote this.  The "yes"
was because it seemed so natural that the true believers would come up with
such an answer.  It smacks of scientific creationism.

>
>>As for the Pleiades,
>> how far away are they?  You would want to add their distance to
>> their apparent age (as viewed from Earth) to get the actual age,
>> right? 
>
> No.
"No" because, as others have pointed out, the Pleiades are close enough
that adding light travel time would be negligable in an evolutionary
context.
> 
>> Also, if evolution is driven in part by genetic mutation caused
>> by stellar radiation, can we expect it to "happen faster" in
>> binary or trinary star systems? 
>
> Yes and no.
"Yes and no" because while evolution may be somewhat accellerated in
such circumstances there are also problems with getting life started
at all in multiple systems.  There was a good article in Astronomy
magazine sometime in the last year on this subject.  It had to do
with the likelyhood of life in the alpha centauri system.  If anybody
is too lazy to look it up themselves, e-mail me and I will slog through
my old issues and find out which one it is in.  (See other INDYVAX posting
on zeta reticuli for other good reasons no.)
> 
>> Have I convinced everyone that a liberal arts education
>> is truly worthless? :-)>
>
> Maybe.
Total smartass stuff here.  I can't talk, I have the same sort of education
(but then again, I _am_ pretty sure mine is worthless.)  Sorry for not
being more forthcoming.  No dog intended.
> 
> Thomas Freebairn
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From: vancleef@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A question for John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <13130.2a747894@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:28:36 EDT
References: <1992Jul16.152737.1@indyvax.iupui.edu> <62918@cup.portal.com>
Lines: 17

In article <62918@cup.portal.com>, John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com writes:
> Dear tffreeb:
> Well someone finally took pity on little ole me and told me who Hassan
> B. Multu is and he turns out to be a person who does a lot of posting
> in Europe. He talks a lot about the Armeanian killing a bunch of Turks
> not too many years ago. I can say without a hesitation that I'm not
> him.
> John Winston.

What the hell does this have to do with "alt.alien.visitors"???

Please don't use net.news for personal messages. It's obnoxious and
a waste of bandwidth.

-Garrett


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From: UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <92209.213800UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Date: 28 Jul 92 01:38:00 GMT
References: <1992Jul23.134824.3067@desire.wright.edu>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 4

The idea was bounced around once in an episode of 'The Six Million Dollar Man'.

Bigfoot ended up being a nice guy, and even made a second appearance on a
later episode.
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From: edc432ysys@vx24.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: ALIEN GREETZ
Message-ID: <1992Jul28.124019.1@vx24.cc.monash.edu.au>
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Sender: news@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Usenet system)
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:40:19 GMT

Saalome gam naan ben uurda gan neeber asaal hesporoona

HI ya!

If you know what this means please contact me !

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: c9109149@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <1992Jul28.112439.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Lines: 15
Sender: news@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 01:24:39 GMT

Here's a way that zeta reticuli system was seeded by aliens.

First they had to make the planet survivable for the bipedal
humanoid zete boys. To do this they 'terraformed' the planet step by step.
First they formed basic stuff like water then dropped in some algae tablets
and pretty soon the waters teemed with oxygen creating lifeforms.
A few gene manipuluations later and a basic ecosystem developed. Then it was
time to build up to the soil and mass carboniferous stuff that would support
the zetis. For this, large (huge) amounts of carbon based organic material
had to be shifted, complex vitamins and organic molecular shapes had to be
mass produced so they sent in the DINOSAURS, those massive organic machines.
In no time at all, wham! Time for more useful , sentient, emotional life
to be sent in to play and so the zeti fellows grabbed a few thousand years
to get to grips with life as they new it, made contact and now they are
spying on us.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 04:40:50 GMT
Message-ID: <1992Jul28.044050.4582@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>
References: <1992Jul27.171026.13467@odin.corp.sgi.com>
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Lines: 16

In article <1992Jul27.171026.13467@odin.corp.sgi.com>, rodb@slugo.corp.sgi.com (Rod Beckwith) writes:
> Hello any & everybody,
>
> no [ ] John, continue with your irratating ways. We love to read all of
> your responses to questions & flames that we have never seen.

i'll take this one, and hmmm
> 
> the old moronic no opinion [ ] What a stupid idea in the first place,who
> cares about someone with no opinion.
>
What the hell, this one two.

As a small potatwos poster to this star group, i find him
quite knowledgable in the art of spirit world news with venus
people and other odd groups.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: dtiberio@csws17.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <1992Jul28.051512.28078@sbcs.sunysb.edu>
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Sender: usenet@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Usenet poster)
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Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
References: <1992Jul27.171026.13467@odin.corp.sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:15:12 GMT
Lines: 29

In article <1992Jul27.171026.13467@odin.corp.sgi.com> rodb@slugo.corp.sgi.com (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>Hello any & everybody,
>
>Mabye John will get the MESSAGE this way?!?! All those in favor of dear old
>John_-_Winston sending e-mail instead of posting his responses to the world
>at large , please post a RE: to this message to let the post happy
>bandwidth burner
>know we are all growing weary of his blatent disregard for information
>dissemination in an organized & efficient manner.The next step of course
>would be to contact the NETWORK POLICE to give him a keyboard enema.
>
>Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I suggest he resort to esp-mail to save on bandwidth.

By the way, how do you put a person in a KILL file? I was able to
kill subjects in my kill file, but a certain person's posts keep appearing.
Thanks a meg.

--
      //   David Tiberio  SUNY Stony Brook 516-473-5156 AMIGA  DDD-MEN 
     //  bounce-resistant:    dtiberio%libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu@sunysb.edu
   \X/     Perot for President 1-516-399-2259 Long Island, New York

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From: ken@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Ken Primer)
Subject: Elvis???
Message-ID: <Bs2w2n.31v@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Sender: usenet@news.cso.uiuc.edu (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:54:22 GMT
Lines: 8


    So what's this deal about Elvis on Mars? Is he an alien or has he been abducted?

--
  RUMORS OF MY DEMISE ARE IN FACT...
ARE NOT EXAGGERATED! I AM IN FACT DEAD.        ken@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu

                        <<FNORD>>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: melissa@voyager4.sdsu.edu (Melissa )
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <1992Jul28.074653.19501@newshub.sdsu.edu>
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References: <Jul.27.14.14.14.1992.12858@dropout.rutgers.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:46:53 GMT
Lines: 56

mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
: Hi,
:
: melissa@voyager4.sdsu.edu (Melissa )
: I was just wondering if anyone out there took seriously
: the theories and claims of famed author and traveler Erich Von
: Daniken.
:
: ... you may want to look for Clifford Wilson's books "Crash go the
: Chariots" and "The Chariots still Crash", for further information on
: EVD's evidence for his thesis.  The sum of the matter is that EVD's
: supporting "evidence" is not what he says it is.  Here's the
: publication information from the Rutgers library catalog:
:
:
:    AUTHOR Wilson, Clifford A
:     TITLE Crash go the chariots / Clifford Wilson.
:   EDITION Rev. and enl.
: PUBLISHER San Diego, Calif. : Master Books, 1976.
:
:
:    AUTHOR Wilson, Clifford A.
:     TITLE The chariots still crash / Clifford Wilson.
: PUBLISHER New York : New American Library, [1976] c1975.
:
:
: ... Read those for a another viewpoint on things.  I always had
: problems with some of EVD's evidence; saying that the Pyramids were
: unbuildable without help ignores the amazing engineering genius that
: humans (even ancient humans) posses.  Its an interesting thesis, of
: course, but in my opinion EVD's evidence should not be taken at face
: value.  (Don't forget the "Gold of the Gods" fiasco.)
:
: Charles

(Please send mail to mike@cadme2.sdsu.edu, not melissa.)

Hi, this is Mike again.
I am familiar with the fact that "Gold of the Gods" was supposedly
written while he was in a jail cell, but I don't recall any real "fiasco".
Was this in reference to the so-called depictions of man and
dinosaur living at the same time? I do remember a Walter Cronkite special
about Von Daniken, where the main theme of the program was the journalist
going out and finding natives of the region who claimed to have actually
carved those representations onto the stones.
Or was the "fiasco" about the "miles of tunnels" which Mr. Moricz
discovered and kept such a secret? I did find it strange that, if these
tunnels did exist, why wasn't there more archeological work done to bring
these facts to the public eye?                   
The book was originally published in 1972, I believe, but I have
never heard again of Juan Moricz and his "Tunnels of Gold".

Michael Whittington
mike@cadme2.sdsu.edu

: Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: melissa@voyager4.sdsu.edu (Melissa )
Subject: The Truth About.........
Message-ID: <1992Jul28.082016.20618@newshub.sdsu.edu>
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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:20:16 GMT
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(Please send mail to mike@cadme2.sdsu.edu, not melissa.)

Hi, this is Mike again.
I have recently aqquired a copy of a very interesting video, and would
like to find out if anyone else has seen it and what they thought.
The name of the video is "The Truth About UFO'S and ET'S".
It is a video taped session of what I can only refer to as a "seminar"
of some sort. From what I've been able to learn about the author, he
travels around to different colleges and such giving these lectures
on Extraterrestrials(sp?) and the paranormal.
I found it to be a rather engaging 90 min. of mostly slide
projection and talking. At the end of the video, he brings in his wife,
who claims tbe connected somehow with a superior race of beings
who are "seeding" the Earth, or something. (I'll have to watch it again).
Anyway, I picked this tape up at Wal-Mart for $4.00, and I think
I got my money's worth The authors name is Brad Steiger. I think he's
had a few books out along the lines of Erich Von Daniken and such.
If you would like to find out more:
The Truth About UFO'S and ET'S
GOODTIMES HOME VIDEO
401 5th Ave.
New York, NY     
10016
The video is copyright 1982 Atlan Productions, if that helps any.

Michael Whittington
mike@cadme2.sdsu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: ***Good_Luck_for_Your_Astral_Convey***
Message-ID: <1992Jul27.160607.1750@rhrk.uni-kl.de>
Sender: news@rhrk.uni-kl.de
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References: <1992Jul23.144307.1@sara.cc.utu.fi> <62712@cup.portal.com> <aero.711995750@neptune>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:06:07 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <aero.711995750@neptune>, aero@neptune.ecn.uoknor.edu (Aero Student Account) writes:
>John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com writes:
>
>>Dear John H.
>>Haven't any time but will comment on this later.
>>John Winston.
>
>Would someone please teach Mr. Winston about the subtleties and
>nuances which distinguish "followup" from "reply?"

I did that some weeks ago, and he answered thanking me but continued posting
instead of mailing, so I put him in my KILL file.  That works much better.

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Do you ask a Napoleon why it has to be Moscow, of all places?  Do you ask a
Mondrian why one has to paint only in the rectangularly framed primary colours
Red, Blue, and Yellow?  Ah, how all questions are ruined in view of a persuas-
ively recited system of madness! And is there a mortar keeping those systems
together firmer than real or supposed enemies?  -  Robert Gernhardt

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From: John_-_Winston@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <62986@cup.portal.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 06:26:26 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <62554@cup.portal.com> <62609@cup.portal.com>
  <cass8806.108@elan.glassboro.edu> <l6u3buINN9fc@news.bbn.com>
  <62695@cup.portal.com> <62709@cup.portal.com>
  <1992Jul27.204837.20643@acuson.com>
Lines: 11

Dear Drew and Bob: I'm really not going to say anything to you two
wonderful gentlemen because I got about 17 bits of E-mail from a person
of the female gender commanding me not to respond to people in a personal
manner. That's supposed to be done through E=mail.
  In accordance with the suggestion that was given to me by Shannon
I did send Him-Her a picture of myself through the mail for identification
purposes only (just in case I come by in astral projection mode). This
picture was sent through the regular post office mail.
  On yes Drew and Bob.  Please don't hold your breath till I respond to
you by E-mail.
  Cheers and all that old stuff.  John Winston.
From: Alastair.Waddell@p6.f853.n681.z3.fidonet.org (Alastair Waddell)
Sender: acsnet@csource.oz.au
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Palladians
Message-ID: <712318832.F00001@csource.oz.au>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:34:00 +1000
Lines: 10

Hello All!

I have only heard this name (verbally) so the spelling may be incorrect.

So who are the Palladians? (not to be confused with "Palladium")

Alastair

 * Origin: The Man in the Iron Mask (3:681/853.6)

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Subject: Spaceships Beyond Our Ken(was Re:Elapsed
Message-ID: <33267.209924726@kcbbs.gen.nz>
From: Robert_Sutton@kcbbs.gen.nz (Robert Sutton)
Date: 28 Jul 92 09:14:27 GMT
References: <1992Jul20.205621.13548@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 9

bx304@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Epler) 20 JUL 92 20:56:21 GMT types-
>Say (this is alt.alien.visitors) has this technology been captured
>from aliens(of tau ceti) that the CIA has hjad inside the Pentagon
>for 73 years.

If they are aliens from the planet tau ceti orbiting the star Tau Ceti
they should have over 60 years to recover it.
Anyway why tau ceti & why 73 years???..

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From: root@cvbnet.prime.com (cvbnet)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <3620@cvbnetPrime.COM>
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:34:31 GMT
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Sender: postnews@cvbnetPrime.COM
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 yes [X] John,please refrain from posting what should be email responses to
 this newsgroup.

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From: mcgrew@dropout.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <Jul.28.10.56.11.1992.13824@dropout.rutgers.edu>
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:56:12 GMT
References: <Jul.27.14.14.14.1992.12858@dropout.rutgers.edu> <1992Jul28.074653.19501@newshub.sdsu.edu>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
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mike@cadme2.sdsu.edu writes (sorry about that, Mike):

..."Gold of the Gods"...but I don't recall any real "fiasco".

.... well, I was actually referring to his interview in "Playboy" in
which he (after evading vigorously) admitted that he had not actually
been in the cave, or even been near where he said it was (even though
he claimed in the book, as I recall, to have seen the gold).

Charles "I buy for the articles" McGrew
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Subject: Re: steamshovel
Message-ID: <168328196.SKTHOMA@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU>
From: SKTHOMA@UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU (Kenn Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:11:27 GMT
Sender: root@parsifal.umkc.edu (Parsifal Administration)
References: <4oFTNB3w165w@utopia.hacktic.nl> <1992Jul14.002441.370@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
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In article <4oFTNB3w165w@utopia.hacktic.nl> gary@utopia.hacktic.nl (Gary Stollman) writes:

>SEE ? I am everywhere ! sn't
he?  I have never heard one single interviewer ever bring up the subject
of religion, even though it would seem to make him a hypocrite if he really
were to hold such beliefs.   Why is it that interviewers are afraid to
pose such an obvious question?

Greg.
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From: aw2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew Todd Weinstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Life in this solar system?
Message-ID: <Ae1BLPm00WB94JS2Yj@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 4 May 92 06:12:43 GMT
Organization: Freshman, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 44


I am responding to Eric Defonso's reply to my original message, and I would
like to say that Eric, first of all, your attempt at trying to make a logical
connection between the odds of humans being created and the odds of the
pyramids and face being formed on Mars naturally is meaningless.  Oh,
please, I am so sick of this logic crap, I get enough of it in my
classes here, it just doesn't make any sense to try to make a connection
the way you did.

If the face on Mars did not convince you, then first of all you should
realize that there is enough evidence to show that there are not only
eyes in the face, but eye sockets by using special computers and image
analysis. 
Besides, the face, I think you should take a closer look at the one
structure at the bottom-left corner of the marspyra picture.  Now you
tell me that that triangular structure (looks like a cut-off pyramid)
looks natural to you,
and pure randomness in the planets history caused it.  If you can come
up with ANY sort of explanation for that particular structure alone,
please let me know because I would love to here it. 

And if you are skeptic about why the structures on Mars would be so similar
to ours here on earth, which is the argument you used to hamper the
possibility of the structures not being natural.  You are assuming that
if there were aliens on Mars, why would the create structures so similar
to ours on Earth if they haven't even known our civilization, but how do
you know that these aliens have never visited us before and examined our
people, culture, etc. They could have been visiting us for thousands of
years and picked up a little bit of our culture (and/or created it) and
recreated it in other places like Mars.  It is not unlikely that this
could have happened on Mars since it is only one planet away from ours!

Also, another explanation that supports the fact that these structures
are certainly a mystery, and not purely natural is the fact that there
are three mysterious things within the general vicinity, the "canals"
(dunno if they are actually canals), the pyramid-like and building-like
structures, and the face, all within about 15 km of each other, what are
the odds of that happening, and it appears as if everything surrounding
these structures is basically flat, so how can these weird objects just
appear in the middle of nothing else but maybe a few craters and rocks?
I mean, if there was a whole mountain range or something like that, then
maybe I would believe you that these structures might be just a figment
of our imagination, but I don't think that pertains to this mystery on
Mars.
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From: dfi@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Daniel Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Tonight: UFOs on Sky News!
Message-ID: <1992May4.080650.1777@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de>
Date: 4 May 92 08:06:50 GMT
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They have announced that in today's Newsline program on BSkyB's Sky News
satellite channel (at 6:30 and 10:30 p.m. BST) there's an 'exclusive' on
UFOs. The footage they showed in the previews yesterday was rather weird...
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From: defonso@astro.as.utexas.edu (Eric Defonso)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Serious research
Keywords: UFO research
Message-ID: <71533@ut-emx.uucp>
Date: 4 May 92 08:08:59 GMT
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In article <1992Apr30.213840.20346@mprgate.mpr.ca> spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) writes:
>
>A serious researcher is not limited by a belief system. A serious researcher
>applies intelligence, intuition, and open-minded skepticism to the problems
>at hand to try to find (mundane or extrordinary) solutions to the UFO mystery
>or parts thereof.
>
>A debunker (who *believes* UFOs are looney nonsense. Period.) uses straw-man
>arguments, character assasination, and ridicule. They also tend to hide under
>the cover of skepticism.
>

Since when have the "serious researchers" ever presented anything to
make the "debunkers" eat their words? It seems to me that *truly* open-minded
skepticism about UFO reports will eventually lead you understand that
UFO's ARE looney nonsense.

What is this "cover of skepticism"? Be specific. When has a "debunker"
raised an issue about the existence of UFO's that has been refuted?

--
Eric DeFonso (astro.as.utexas.edu)
++++++++++++++++++++++ "The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich,
as well as the poor, from begging in the streets, sleeping under bridges,
and stealing bread." ---Anatole France
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From: Meessen@slig.ucl.ac.be (Christophe Meessen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: PENTAGON ADMITS IT HAS ALIEN VESSELS
Message-ID: <1992May4.084540.18598@info.ucl.ac.be>
Date: 4 May 92 08:45:40 GMT
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Even if the Pentagon and the President would tell ALL "secrets" they may know,
very few people would believe they realy did so.

It looks as if they're trapped in their game!

Chris.
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From: s332@brems.ii.uib.no (Gard Samsonsen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Life in this solar system?
Message-ID: <1992May4.133509.5967@alf.uib.no>
Date: 4 May 92 13:35:09 GMT
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Since there has been large oceans on Mars, I think it would be
fear to assume that there once,but long ago, existed primitive
life on Mars.This would be algaes and other microbes.
Only a manned expedition to the planet will give the answer.
These microbes are life-forms, not intelligent life as such.

                              Gard Samsonsen
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From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: addition to prev message
Message-ID: <6766@shodha.enet.dec.com>
Date: 4 May 92 13:47:49 GMT
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In article <ce0T9m200WB9EeFGZp@andrew.cmu.edu>, aw2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew Todd Weinstein) writes...
>
>For those who have replied to me about life in this solar system, I forgot
>to say, is there any sign of any life in this solar system
>BESIDES EARTH!! I think that was pretty much understood, though. 


        No!  There is no evidence of life outside of this planet.


        Steve
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From: jjs40@cd.amdahl.com (John Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Face on Mars (Was: Life in this solar system?)
Message-ID: <c3p902Mz11ZY01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>
Date: 4 May 92 15:46:40 GMT
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In article <Ae1BLPm00WB94JS2Yj@andrew.cmu.edu>, aw2s+@andrew.cmu.edu
(Andrew Todd Weinstein) writes:

>If the face on Mars did not convince you, then first of all you should
>realize that there is enough evidence to show that there are not only
>eyes in the face, but eye sockets by using special computers and image
>analysis. 

You should be aware of the fact that the picture of the face on Mars is
actually quite an old picture.  Pre-Viking, I think.  The "face" and "pyramid"
in the photo were not even noticed until the late-80's when "special computers
and image analysis" were applied to the photo. 

Once upon a time you might actually be able to believe what you saw in a
photograph.  However, as early as 1980 there existed computer image processing
software and hardware good enough to make a picture of the New York skyline
with the buildings rearranged and fool experts with it. 

(On a side note, anyone remember hearing of the Hell Machine?  This was one of
the first truly-photographic quality image processing systems, named after it's
inventor - not the social/political/historical consequences of such a device.)

This type of equipment used to exist only in the hands of the government. 
Hollywood has had it for about 8-9 years.  Local television stations have had
the capability for about 2 years.  In another 5, it will certainly be available
on the desktop. 

So, my point is basically that, when "faces" and "pyramids" start showing up
in droves on everything from the surface of the Sun to Cher's buttocks --
DON'T BELIEVE IT!

John Sullivan, jjs40@cd.amdahl.com
"The truth shall make you free."
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From: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Parallel development of technique (was Re: Life in this solar system?)
Message-ID: <1992May4.160037.17916@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Date: 4 May 92 16:00:37 GMT
Sender: news@watdragon.waterloo.edu (USENET News System)
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In article   writes:
>From: aw2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew Todd Weinstein)
>
>Besides, the face, I think you should take a closer look at the one
>structure at the bottom-left corner of the marspyra picture.  Now you
>tell me that that triangular structure (looks like a cut-off pyramid)
>looks natural to you,
>and pure randomness in the planets history caused it.  If you can come
>up with ANY sort of explanation for that particular structure alone,
>please let me know because I would love to here it. 
>
>And if you are skeptic about why the structures on Mars would be so similar
>to ours here on earth, which is the argument you used to hamper the
>possibility of the structures not being natural.

Ignoring the question of whether or not the alleged pyramid is
an artifact, parallel development of technique is not necessarily proof
of contact. If one is building tall structures, and the material one is
working with is self-supported stone, the taller structures will, imo,
look like pyramids, because tapering is one way of extending the maximum
height achievable with a given material. They might be smooth pyramids,
like the later Egyptian ones or step pyramids like the early Egyptian
and the mesoamerican pyramids, but the general form of a broad base
supporting a narrow summit will be the same.

Note that the general form of pyramids shows up in tall mountains,
because other forms arn't as stable and don't last as long (And there
*are* narrow bottomed, wide topped geological formations).

James Nicoll
Path: ns-mx!uunet!autodesk!owen
From: owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Planets Outside the Solar System
Message-ID: <14714@autodesk.COM>
Date: 4 May 92 18:09:18 GMT
References: <1992Apr28.220207.7109@bsu-ucs.uucp> <1992Apr29.145241.1@cubldr.colorado.edu>
Sender: news@Autodesk.COM
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In article <1992Apr29.145241.1@cubldr.colorado.edu>, crago_l@cubldr.colorado.edu writes:
> It is alleged that the Druid tradition (builders of Stonehenge) accounted
> something like 14 planets in our solar system, some with such immense
> orbits that they would only come within observational distance from
> earth every 8-10,000 years -- a long enough time for their last
> appearance to be forgotten by the next one.

what utter crap.
It is alleged by whom?

The druids had a completely oral tradition, and for all practical purposes
their lore is lost.. There are some fragments, but they are few .
And what fragments there are that do exist are well known.
Nothing of the sort can be found in those fragments.

This is the kind of nonsense  that gets thrown about by people who have no
idea what they are talking about.
In the case that you ever get any substantive information, and then mouth
this kind of nonsense it will most assuredly affect how people accept
anything else you say.


Kabish?


LUX . .owen

--
D. Owen Rowley {uunet,fernwood,sun}!autodesk!owen

  " It will be a cold March 17th that I celebrate the imposition of
Romes rule, on Pagan Ireland. Erin go ppphhhhhttttttt! "
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From: STONE@Zeus.unomaha.edu (Travis R. Stone)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Celeste & UFOs
Message-ID: <1992May4.163642.28260@news.unomaha.edu>
Date: 4 May 92 16:36:42 GMT
Sender: news@news.unomaha.edu (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Lines: 41
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11

To Celeste (whomever and wherever you may be):

In reply to your recent post, allow me to say, madame, that

(A) That SOMETHING is being seen is our skies is absolutely
    undeniable; just WHAT is being seen is the conundrum of
    the hour, and is (in my opinion) the actual bone of
    contention in the study of UFOs.  In a manner of speaking,
    then, I agree with your first statement.

(B) Don't tack an apostrophe on before the "s" in UFOs---that
    would indicate the posessive case (e.g., "The UFO's landing
    gear appeared to the witness to consist of a tripodlike
    arrangement of pogo sticks.")

(C) As for there being intelligent life elsewhere: I firmly
    BELIEVE there is myself, but I wouldn't advise making
    a pronouncement of the idea that sounds like a state-
    ment of absolute fact; if you want to make irrefutable
    declarations, stick to saying things that won't lessen
    your credibility---my personal favorite (and one that
    no one has been able to catch me out on) comes from the
    now-extinct strip "Bloom County":

              Basset hounds got long ears.

    Ungrammatical, but true nonetheless.  The point I'm trying
    to make here is that flatly declaring the existence of
    intelligent life elsewhere---sans tangible proof---makes
    the people you want to convince (i.e., the skeptics) think
    you are an unobjective "believer" incapable of dispassionate
    analysis and hence not to be listened to.

    And being listened to---being regarded as a credible person---
    is an important commodity in getting one's point across,
    nicht?....

  T.R. Stone
  University of Nebraska-Omaha
  Home of the Toughest Organic Chemistry Instructors in the Galaxy
  (I believe it, even though I can't PROVE it! :-) )
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From: mitch@seashell.seas.ucla.edu (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SCIENCE and UFO's
Message-ID: <6865@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>
Date: 4 May 92 17:03:22 GMT
References: <1992Apr29.171125.5315@dvorak.amd.com>
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In article <1992Apr29.171125.5315@dvorak.amd.com> billp@mozart.amd.com (Bill Peterson) writes:
[...]
> As a theory withstands tests of it's capability to explain
>the observed behaviour, it becomes stronger. Eventually it is assumed
>to be true. As in Newton's laws. As our instrumentation gets more
>discriminating, experiments show errors in the theory, or confirm
>it.
>
> As for UFOs, it seems much easier to me to go ahead and posit
>the existence of ET. This handily explains almost all of the observed
>behaviour. Our own limited knowledge (knowledge is always limited)
>concludes that other planets are highly likely. Life abounds on Earth
>in all kinds of weird places. There is no real reason NOT to assume ET
>out there somewhere.

Well, there are already too many assholes giving skeptics a bad
name, so I won't claim to be one (a skeptic, that is.)

One of the scientific principles you've overlooked is "Occam's Razor",
which basically says that when choosing between two competing
hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions is the more acceptable.
(Doesn't _prove_ it is correct, but is more likely to be so.)
I'm sure someone will followup with a more articulate definition, and
probably quibble about my calling it a "scientific principle".

Anyway, let's apply OR to the following problem:

Problem: How can we explain the numerous anecdotal reports of
         UFO sightings and abduction experiences?  (We will assume
         that such reports _do_ occur, and the reporters are
         honestly reporting what they _believe_ they saw or
         experienced.)

Hypothesis 1:  Alien Visitors from another star system.

Hypothesis 2:  Government Conspiracy.

H1 requires (at least) the following:

   A. Life evolved on two planets in different star systems.

   B. Life on these planets reach a technologically advanced stage.

   C. Inhabitants of one planet develop interstellar travel, and

   D. Travel to the other planet and interact with the inhabitants
      thereof in a way that produces reports of sightings and
      abductions.

H2 requires the following:

   A. Life evolved on one planet.

   B. Life on that planet reaches a technologically advanced stage.

   C. Some of the inhabitants construct a conspiracy using technology...

   D. ... in a way that causes other inhabitants to report
      sightings and abductions.

Under H1, A,B,C, and D are all assumptions.

Under H2, only D is an assumption.  (Life has evolved on one planet,
and reached a technologically advanced stage; does anyone dispute
that technology _has_ been used to carry out conspiracies?)

Therefore, Occam's Razor compels us to accept H2 in favor of H1.
Okay, where did I screw up?

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman
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From: mitch@seashell.seas.ucla.edu (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: PENTAGON ADMITS IT HAS ALIEN VESSELS
Message-ID: <6867@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>
Date: 4 May 92 18:00:02 GMT
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In article <10aksmd.sheaffer@netcom.com> sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>     "In the 1970's the world will undergo famines - hundreds of millions
>     of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs
>     embarked upon now ... in 1985, when it is calculated [under the most
>     optimistic scenario] that the major die-back will be over, ..."
>     
>                       Dr. Paul Ehrlich, "The Population Bomb," 1968



Something about Mr. Sheaffer's .sig bothers me, but I'm not sure why.
He seems to be offering this example of a failed prediction so that
we will conclude "this prediction is false; therefore all predictions
are false".  I think this would fall under Fallacy Number Nine:

    9. Converse Accident (hasty generalization).  Making a general
       rule based on a few atypical cases.

Comments?

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman
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From: b12958@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (peter.f.schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Life in this solar system?
Message-ID: <1992May4.144539.10306@cbnewsc.cb.att.com>
Date: 4 May 92 14:45:39 GMT
References: <1992May1.201954.3391@otto.lvsun.com>
Organization: AT&T
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From article <1992May1.201954.3391@otto.lvsun.com>, by rex@otto.lvsun.com (Rex Jolliff):
> In article <wdzvxKG00axfN1_UF=@andrew.cmu.edu> aw2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew Todd Weinstein) writes:
>
> !I am just curious if there is any known evidence of any form of life
> !anywhere in this solar system, whether it be traces of life, smart
> !molecular groupings, viruses, anything that is some form of life or
> !trace of life that used to exist or signs of life beginning to form. 
>
> We're reasonably sure that there is intelligent life on the third planet
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                                              ^^^^^
> from the sun.
> --
> Rex Jolliff  N7PCF  (rex@otto.lvsun.com, {convex, texsun, mirror}!otto!rex)


I think no conclusions cna be made on this one.

This reminds me of something an astromony instructor said in a
class in 1960 (before the Mariner fly-by later in the the 60's and
before the viking llanders in the 70's).  He said someething like

Mars is the one planet in the Solar System that may
have intelligent life.

About half of the class seemed to get his drift, the other half
were pretty dense.

[Sorry, a virus consumed my .sig ]
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From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What is Sufficient Proof?
Message-ID: <1992May4.182606.9822@anasaz>
Date: 4 May 92 18:26:06 GMT
References: <1992Apr28.145259.1836@awdprime.austin.ibm.com>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
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In article <1992Apr28.145259.1836@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com writes:
->Something I've been wondering about for awhile now:
->
->What would I have to do to conclusively prove to the world at
->large (including the editorial staff of the _Skeptical
->Enquirer_ :-) that I've seen an extraterrestrial spacecraft
->or been abducted by Little Gray Men? It seems like photographs,
->videotapes, and polygraphs don't get much respect nowadays
->(probably a good thing). Has anyone ever come up with a
->universally agreed-upon standard of proof? (ie, "We'll believe

... stuff deleted ...

The scientific standard is a "repeatable experiment."  So, you need to show
interested observers where they can go to see the spacecraft and/or greys
or you need to have some physical evidence - phaser, tri-corder, whatever -
anyone can look at and say "gosh, that didn't come from here."  A crashed
UFO and/or alien body would do the trick. 

How about a notarized statement from a grey.



--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu    (602) 395-1732
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From: revpk@cellar.org (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Phil Klass - Religious Fanatic?
Message-ID: <90k0JB1w164w@cellar.org>
Date: 4 May 92 19:28:31 GMT
References: <1992May4.053243.11127@news2.cis.umn.edu>
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glarson@shark.micro.umn.edu (Greg Larson) writes:

> Although I've heard some off-hand comments that Klass was a religious
> person, can someone please give me a direct answer - is he or isn't
> he?  I have never heard one single interviewer ever bring up the subject
> of religion, even though it would seem to make him a hypocrite if he really
> were to hold such beliefs.   Why is it that interviewers are afraid to
> pose such an obvious question?
>
> Greg.

        And might I ask just how relevant one's religion is when examining
the evidence presented for UFOs? Or, are you prepared to assert that, because
Klass might be devout (and I don't even know what religion he has), he's
therefore unreliable?


Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  revpk@cellar.org
Warning! Beware of weird, horrible cult which: Uses promises of money, a job,
and other favors to recruit people; indoctrinates beginners in an armed
camp until they're thoroughly brainwashed; employs terror,
assassination, murder, and threats thereof; is particularly interested
in the young, and those who follow orders without question; holds
against their will members who wish to leave; and goes by many names,
e.g., The Service, military, Armed Forces, ROTC, JROTC, recruiters,
Defense, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, National Guard, Green Berets.
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From: aw2s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew Todd Weinstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: THE BIBLE
Message-ID: <ce1M1iy00WAv0ssEEs@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 4 May 92 18:20:30 GMT
Organization: Freshman, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 271


I recently got the bible from an ftp, and was searching through the 4
meg text document for certain key words, like wheel, flame, white,
angel, and
I came up with some very interesting quotes from the bible.
It sounds to me a lot like the things written in the bible were based on
alien/ufo influences during that time.  I have been reading this book on
UFO's and the author presents some very interesting quotes throughout
history of possible descriptions of UFO's and these were historical quotes
from Japan, Europe, and other places , most of which had little contact
between each other thousands of years ago and a lot of them described
UFO's in the sky using the same word, "wheel", and in the Bible, they
mention the word wheel a few times, which I think is very interesting.
And also the fact that if you lived 2000 or more years ago when there
was absolutely no high-tech things and the only thing you knew that flew
were birds and insects, you would lose your mind if you saw anything
like a UFO fly in the sky (not to say that many people now wouldn't lose
their mind if they saw one, although they would be skeptic like try to
explain it by saying that it was some military flight, or whatever, but
back then, there were no airplanes or anything like that),  and you
would immediately think that this is some message from the lord above
and you would immediately think that it was some powerful religious or
spiritual thing.  Well, let me know what you think, and if you have any
other quotes to add to this that might relate the bible to UFO's/aliens,
please post them.

*** NOTE: the quotes below are directly taken from the bible and were
not altered in any way.  I am not against any religion or anything like
that, I do believe in God, but I don't feel it necessary to follow a
particular religion that tells me how I should believe in God.  I am
just a little curious as to what motivated the writings in the bible, if
they were based on spiritual things, or maybe it can be explained with
UFO's/aliens happenings during that time ***

These quotes from the bible are not in any particular order, I just cut
and pasted sections that I thought were interesting.


066:015 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his
        chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and
        his rebuke with flames of fire.

007:009 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of
        days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of     
        his  head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery
        flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

001:007 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and
        his ministers a flame of fire.

019:012 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many
        crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he
        himself.

019:014 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
        horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

020:001 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of
        the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

020:011 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from
        whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was
        found no place for them.

022:008 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had
        heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the
        angel which shewed me these things.

083:013 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the
        wind.

001:004 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north,
        a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness
        was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of
        amber, out of the midst of the fire.
001:005 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living
        creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the
likeness of a man.
001:006 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

001:007 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet
        was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the
        colour of burnished brass.
001:008 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their
        four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.
001:009 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when
        they went; they went every one straight forward.
001:010 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of
        a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they
        four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also
        had the face of an eagle.
001:011 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward;
        two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two
        covered their bodies.
001:012 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit
        was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.
001:013 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance
        was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of
        lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the
        fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
001:014 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of
        a flash of lightning.
001:015 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon
        the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.
001:016 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the
        colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their
        appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle
        of a wheel.
001:017 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they
        turned not when they went.
001:018 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful;
        and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.
001:019 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them:
        and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth,
        the wheels were lifted up.
001:020 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was
        their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against
        them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
001:021 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these
        stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the
        wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the
        living creature was in the wheels.
001:022 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living
        creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched
        forth over their heads above.
001:023 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one
        toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this
        side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their
        bodies.

001:024 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the
        noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice
        of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let
        down their wings.
001:025 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their
        heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.
001:026 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the
        likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone:   
and upon            the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the
        appearance of a man above upon it.
001:027 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire
        round about within it, from the appearance of his loins eve
        upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I
        saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness
        round about.
001:028 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day
        of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about.
        This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the
        LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a
        voice of one that spake.
002:001 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I
        will speak unto thee.
002:002 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set
        me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.
002:003 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of
                                   Israel, to a rebellious nation that
hath rebelled against
                 me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even
                 unto this very day.

003:013 I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures
        that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over
  against them, and a noise of a great rushing.
003:014 So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in
        bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD
        was strong upon me.

009:010 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I
        have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
009:011 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn
        by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou
        hast commanded me.
010:001 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above
        the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were
        a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a
        throne.
010:002 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in
        between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand
        with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter
        them over the city. And he went in in my sight.
010:003 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when
        the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.
010:004 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood
        over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with 
     the              cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of
the
        LORD's glory.
010:005 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the
        outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he
        speaketh.
010:006 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the ma
        clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels,
        from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside
        the wheels.
010:007 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the
        cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and
        took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was
        clothed with linen: who took it, and went out.
010:008 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand
        under their wings.
010:009 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims,
        one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub:
        and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl
        stone.
010:010 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as
        if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.
010:011 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned
        not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked
        they followed it; they turned not as they went.
010:012 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and
        their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about,
        even the wheels that they four had.
010:013 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O
        wheel.
010:014 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a
        cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the
        third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
010:015 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature
        that I saw by the river of Chebar.
010:016 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and     
                 when    the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up
from the
                earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.
010:017 When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up,
        these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living
        creature was in them.
010:018 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of
        the house, and stood over the cherubims.
010:019 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from
        the eart
>I don't think that Newton was really a genius. Hard-working, certainly,
>but his intelligence was quite common, I believe.
> ...
><Flame off>

Obviously, whether any particular person was a genius or not is
a matter of opinion. However, in the `History of Science' type books
and Encyclopaedia entries I have read on Newton (check Encyclopaedia
Britannica, and Isaac Asimov's book of biographies) the general
consensus is that he was one of the brightest scientists the world has
seen, perhaps even *the* most brilliant. He was also, by all accounts, a
rather unpleasant guy - but that's beside the point!

>--
>=---K8>>@@@@@@@@ Marc Milanini @@@@ marcmil@microsoft.com @@@@%%

Andrew ------------------------------------- Andrew.Leaver@uk.ac.oxford.prg
  //    "You can choose from phantom fears     And kindness that can kill;
\\/      I will choose a path that's clear -   I will choose Free Will" - RUSH
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From: lpb@stratus.swdc.stratus.com (Len Bucuvalas x5363)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Talmud as Given by Judas Iscariot
Message-ID: <9203121915.AA11631@echidna.swdc.stratus.com>
Date: 12 Mar 92 19:15:25 GMT
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Lines: 288

I was sent this by a friend to post.  I find it challanging and believeable
in light of how the bible has been edited over the years from the original as
written by the apostles.....you decide...the following is a short excerpt
of selected sections.

Len
=========================================================================


The Talmud of Jmmanuel

-------

First translation of the Aramaic script written by Judas Iscariot, the
disciple of Jmmanuel (Jesus), discovered in 1963 in the burial cave of
Jmmanuel.

The Clear Translation in English and German.

Translated into German by Isa Rashid and Eduard Meier, and translated into
English by Julie Ziegler and B. L. Greene.

-------

Dedicated to the man known to many as Jesus, known herein as Jmmanuel,
in the hope that the truths that he shared may be heard clearly today.

-------

  Copyright 1992 Wild Flower Press Box 230893 Tigard, OR 97224
  800/366-0264.

-------

Selected Portions to Raise Your Consciousness:

-------

6:10  "Be aware also, that through this sacred thing the almighty power of the
spirit always dwells within yourself.
6:11  "Therefore pray as one who knows, and thus pray as follows:
6:12  "'My spirit, you are omnipotent.
6:13  "'Your name be holy.
6:14  "'Let your kingdom incarnate itself in me.
6:15  "'Let your power unfold itself within me, on Earth and in the heavens.
6:16  "'Give me today my daily bread, so that I recognize my guilt and the
truth.
6:17  "'And lead me not into temptation and confusion, but deliver me from
error.
6:18  "'For yours is the kingdom within me and the power and the knowledge
forever. Amen.'
6:19  "When you pray to your spirit, it will give you what you request; trust
with knowledge, and you will receive.
6:20  "However, if you believe in the false teachings that the power and
spirit do not dwell within you, then you will be without knowledge and will
live in spiritual poverty.
6:21  "Though you will also receive now and then what you in your false belief
request from misused sacred things, idols and gods, you will receive only out
of your strong false belief, without knowledge of the real truth.
6:22  "Truly, I say to you: Blessed are only those who serve the actual truth
and knowledge, because only they receive in honesty.

-----

1:1   This is the book and mystery of Jmmanuel, which means "the one with
godly knowledge," who is a son of Joseph, of Jacob, the distant descendant of
David, who was a descendant of Abraham, whose lineage traces back to Adam, the
father of one of Earth's human races, who was begotten by Semjasa, the leader
of the celestial sons who were the guardian angels of god, the great ruler of
the distant travelers.
1:2   Semjasa, the celestial son and guardian angel of god, the great ruler of
the distant travelers who traversed the expanse of the universe, together with
a terrestrial woman, begot Adam, the father of the white human race.
1:3   Adam took for himself an earth wife and begot Seth.
1:4   Seth begot Enos.

1:80  Jacob begot Joseph.

-----

3:26  As John the Baptist thus spoke, behold, Jmmanuel of Galilee then came to
him at the Jordan, to be baptized by him.
3:27  John, however, refused him and spoke, "I certainly need to be baptized
by you, because you possess greater knowledge than I, and you come to me?"
3:28  But Jmmanuel answered him, "Let it happen so now, because it is fitting
for us to fulfill all justice, since we are both sons of the earth."
3:29  So John consented and baptized him.
3:30  When Jmmanuel had been baptized, he soon came out of the water of the
Jordan, and behold, a metallic light dropped from the sky and descended
steeply over the Jordan.
3:31  Consequently they all fell on their faces and pressed them into the sand
while a voice from the metallic light spoke,
3:32  "This is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. He will be the king
of truth who will lift this human race to knowledge."
3:33  Behold, after these words Jmmanuel entered into the metallic light,
which climbed into the sky, surrounded by fire and smoke, and passed over the
lifeless sea, as the singing of the metallic light soon faded away.
3:34  After that, Jmmanuel was no longer seen for forty days and nights.

-----

4:46  "In the name of god the law was issued to create you so that you may
serve as prophet and pioneer of wisdom for these human races.
4:47  "Fulfill your mission unperturbed in the face of irrationality,
disbelieving people and false teachings of the scribes and Pharisees.
4:48  "Hence, following the fulfillment of your mission, centuries and two
millennia will pass before the truth of your knowledge brought among the
people will be recognized and disseminated by some humans.
4:49  "Not until the time of space-traveling machines will the truth break
through and gradually shake the false teaching that you are the son of god or
Creation.
4:50  "However, this will be the time when we celestial sons begin to reveal
ourselves anew to the human races, since they will have become knowing and
with their acquired power threaten the structure of the heavens."
4:51  Thus they spoke, the celestial sons between the North and the West,
before they took Jmmanuel in the metallic light back to Israel, to the land of
Galilee.

-----

12:19  "Truly, truly, I say to you: These laws of order were given by nature
and should be followed, or human beings will bring death to themselves and to
the masses.
12:20  "This earth can nourish and support five hundred million people of all
the human races. But if these laws are not followed, in two thousand years ten
times five hundred million people will exist, and the earth will not be able
to support them any more.
12:21  "Famines, catastrophes, world wars and epidemics will control the earth,
and the human races will commit suicide, with only a few surviving.
12:22  "Truly, I say to you: There will be wailing and chattering of teeth when
so much human blood is shed upon the sands of the earth that new life forms
will arise from it, which will bring the final horror to mankind.
12:23  "But on this day you have been allowed to receive all good things, and
the laws have been given to you by which you should live.
12:24  "And you should adhere to additional laws, so that you will have
prosperity on earth and peace in your families.
12:25  "Do away with the enforcement of the old law that woman should be
subject to man, since she is a person like a man, with equal rights and
obligations.

-----

25:36  "When at that point someone will say to the people, 'Behold, here is
Jmmanuel, who is the sign of the time,' they should not accept it to be true.
25:37  "Because many a false Jmmanuel and many impostors and false prophets
will rise and do great signs, it becomes possible to lead astray not only
those who seek, believe and err, but also the scholars and intelligent people.
25:38  "Behold, I told you so before, and so it will fulfill itself.
25:39  "Therefore, when impostors and those led astray will say, 'He is in the
desert,' people shall not go there, and when they say, 'Truly, he is in a
chamber,' they shall not accept it as the truth.
25:40  "Since I will certainly return at that time, I will let them recognize
me.
25:41  "This is how the law and destiny want it, and that's the way it will be.
25:42  "Just as lightning starts from its rise and radiates until its setting,
so will be my coming in the future, when I bring the teaching anew and
announce the legions of the celestial sons, when I will have a renewed life
and will again be accused of deception and blasphemy over the breadth of the
world, until the teaching of truth will bring about insight and change in
people.
25:43  "People of all times, beware: where the carcass is, there the vultures
will gather, so watch out.
25:44  "Soon after the grief of that time, sun and moon will lose their luster,
comets will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will start to
sway.
25:45  "The structure of the heavens and of the air will be disturbed, and the
land will burn because of the black oil of the earth, ignited by the greed of
the people, and the sky will be dark because of smoke and fire, and so the
weather will break down, and severe cold and many deaths among people, plants
and animals all over the earth will result from people's power senselessly
developed, and people will live with their greed for power and mania and vice.
25:46  "Then there will appear signs in the sky, and all races on earth will
cry and come to see the signs in the clouds of the sky that witness of great
power and strict judgments against irrationality.
25:47  "Since god is the ruler over three human races, the laws and
commandments of Creation will be valid in all eternity through which, as
representation of Creation and human irrationality, people will judge
themselves with anger.
25:48  "People owe their existence to god, who is the ruler over them, so that
they have to follow his commandments and respect him as the greatest king of
wisdom.
25:49  "He will send his guardian angels with loud trumpets that will gather
his followers from all directions, from one end of the earth to the other.
25:50  "Do learn a parable from the fig tree; when its branch puts forth
leaves, you know that summer is near.
25:51  "So it will also be at that time when the people see all of this, they
will know that the end is close at hand.
25:52  "Truly, truly, I say to you: This is how it will be.
25:53  "This human race will not perish until all of this has come about.
25:54  "The heavens and the earth will pass, and so will the universe; but my
words will not pass, because they are words of truth within the laws of
Creation.
25:55  "No one knows the day or hour when all this will happen, neither the
guardian angels, nor god himself, nor I, Jmmanuel, but only providence and
destiny through the laws and commandments of Creation, which possesses the
greatest wisdom.
25:56  "Creation alone rises far above all human races, and it alone deserves
honor and praise, just as it renders honor and praise to the absolute power
above it.
25:57  "If people revere and honor god and recognize only Creation as the
supreme power, they act according to the truth."

-----

27:27  "While we are here together, Juda Ihariot, the son of the Pharisee in
Jerusalem, is hatching a plot against me as to how he can betray me to the
chief priests.
27:28  "While we are gathered here, he is asking the chief priests for the
blood money that they offer for my capture.
27:29  "Thirty pieces of silver are offered to him if they catch me through his
help.
27:30  "While they are forging this plan, they are also hatching the plot
against one among you, since they want to present a culprit to the people.
27:31  "Thus Juda Ihariot, the son of the Pharisee, will turn me over to the
soldiers, and my disciple, Judas Iscariot, is supposed to be considered the
traitor,
27:32  "so that the people will say, 'Behold, these confused people are divided
among themselves and therefore one betrays the other. So, how can the teaching
of Jmmanuel be the truth?'
27:33  "But since Juda Ihariot, the son of the Pharisee, and my disciple, Judas
Iscariot, have almost identical names, the lie of the chief priests will be
accepted from the beginning."

-----

36:29  "Truly, I say to you: Those who understand the truth of this speech and
attain understanding in wisdom are obliged to align their lives with their
destiny of eternal change towards Creation.
36:30  "When people are honest and search, they will not know any preconceived
opinion or prejudice.
36:31  "But the wise know and are aware of the law of the everlasting river of
eternal change; therefore they endeavor to adjust to the great course of
happenings, because they recognize the laws of Creation, that the cycles of
life have to be closed through the determinations of the laws.
36:32  "Wherever life reveals itself, it is based upon the law of the invisible
secret that brings about the eternal change.
36:33  "Whoever disregards and fails to recognize timeless and imperishable
laws and truths will have to suffer evil consequences.
36:34  "Lies and hatred will blind such a person and even entire peoples, and
they will rush into the abyss of their own destruction.
36:35  "A blind, destructive mania will come over them, and the heroes among
them will be the greatest destroyers.
36:36  "Discord will permeate people's entire lives, and there is no longer a
unity or perfection when there is a split.
36:37  "As long as there is imperfection in life, people will have to bear
these consequences: sickness, misery, injustice, need, fighting, strife,
slavery, false sects and exploitation leading to bloodshed and death.
36:38  "So let the human beware and wake up, because the laws of Creation say
that only that which is timeless and everlasting is of permanence, truth and
wisdom, and so it is."

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  Copyright 1992 Wild Flower Press Box 230893 Tigard, OR 97224
  800/366-0264.

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These are only a few selections from:

THE TALMUD OF JMMANUEL

First translation of the Aramaic script written by Judas Iscariot, the
disciple of Jmmanuel (Jesus), discovered in 1963 in the burial cave of
Jmmanuel.

The Clear Translation in English and German.

Translated into German by Isa Rashid and Eduard Meier, and translated into
English by Julie Ziegler and B. L. Greene.

ISBN 0-926524-12-7.
Library of Congress Catalog Cd. No. 90-34240, First Edition:  1992.

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Available from the publisher:

Wild Flower Press
P.O. Box 230893
Tigard, OR 97224
(800) 366-0264
$15.95 + $2.50 S/H = $18.45.

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