Writing Picture Books

 Guest authors: Jary Jane Auch, Loreen Leedy, Janet Stevens & Nancy Van Laan

Topic: Writing Picture Books

Tuesdays 

9 p.m. ET (6 p.m. PT), Writers Workshop

Children's Writers chat - writers and illustrators of children's books meet for specific topics and special guest speakers, moderated by HOST WRTR WBABE & HOST WRTR CGaley, with HOST WRTR sUe & HOST WRTR Neely (Greeters).

6/9/98 5:05:32 PM Opening "Chat Log 6/9/98"

Guest authors: Mary Jane Auch, Loreen Leedy, Janet Stevens & Nancy Van Laan

Topic: Writing picture books

WriterBabe: We are going into protocol...NOW!

WriterBabe: When it's time for audience participation, type ? for a question, ! for a comment and wait

WriterBabe: your turn in the queue to be called on.

WriterBabe: Type GA for Go Ahead (guests too) when you're finished speaking.

WriterBabe: Tonight we are truly privileged to have four outstanding--and I do mean outstanding--

WriterBabe: picture books writers/illustrators:

WriterBabe: Mary Jane Auch, author of PEEPING BEAUTY, BANTAM OF THE OPERA and a host of other books;

WriterBabe: Loreen Leedy, who's written THE EDIBLE PYRAMID, POSTCARDS FROM PLUTO and many other

WriterBabe: non-fiction pb's;

WriterBabe: Janet Stevens, writer/reteller of THREE BILLY GOATS GRUFF, THE PRINCESS AND THE PEA, TOPS

WriterBabe: AND BOTTOMS, and other award-winners;

WriterBabe: And Nancy Van Laan, writer/reteller of RAINBOW CROW, WITH A WHOOP AND A HOLLER and a ton of

WriterBabe: other tales!

WriterBabe: Welcome, gals!

NVanlaan: glad to be here.

WriterBabe: Actually, I should probably ask you to wave:

LJLart: Great to be here!

WriterBabe: Mary Jane, say hi.

RhinoInk: This will be fun!

MJAlso: Hi, everybody!

WriterBabe: Mary Jane?

WriterBabe: Thanks.  Loreen, now you wave.

LJLart: (Now waving...)

Kalozow: HI Aplbrk

WriterBabe: Janet, give a howdy.

RhinoInk: Waves to all!

WriterBabe: And Nancy, you're screen name is obvious!

WriterBabe: I mean your.

NVanlaan: Yep. Dumb huh?

WriterBabe: Not at all, Nancy!

WriterBabe: Would any of you like to make opening remarks, or shall I plunge into questions?

RhinoInk: Questions would be great.

NVanlaan: Plunge away.

MJAlso: Questions.

WriterBabe: I'll take the plunge, then.

WriterBabe: Many people--both writers and non-writers--think picture books are easy to write.  We know

WriterBabe: that's not true.

WriterBabe: What makes them so difficult?  What makes a good pb?  What makes a bad one?

LJLart: I have been working on one for over a year, (it has a lot of detail.)

MJAlso: A good picture book has voice and heart.  A bad one is generic.

NVanlaan: Keeping it simple is key.

LJLart: A good book for me is one on a topic that hasn't been done to death.

RhinoInk: I always start with the pictures, then develop a story.

NVanlaan: Or a different slant.

WriterBabe: All of the editors I've spoken to about pb's mention voice as very important.

LJLart: A bad picture book to me is one with ugly art and illogical text.

WriterBabe: Could you elaborate on what you think it is?  What's a pb voice?

MJAlso: Voice is like a verbal fingerprint.

LJLart: Consistency for one.

RhinoInk: My cat was the voice of my new book.

WriterBabe: A verbal fingerprint--great description!

NVanlaan: The voice in my POSSUM book was me as a little girl.

LJLart: One of these days I want to write a book with all plant characters.

WriterBabe: So there isn't ONE voice for pb's.  But each pb has to have a unique and consistent voice.

NVanlaan: Yes.

WriterBabe: Loreen, great idea!

WriterBabe: Sometimes an animal or a child's voice, sometimes a storyteller's voice.

MJAlso: I think people should write the book only they can write.  Then the

MJAlso: voice comes through.

NVanlaan: In Whoop, I had to do many voices.

RhinoInk: It is important that the pictures speak with one consistent voice.

WriterBabe: Was that fun, Nancy?

WriterBabe: Janet, that's a great point!

WriterBabe: Is the voice for the pictures the same as the voice for the text?

LJLart: I find the characters (whether animals or people) dictate the boundaries of a story.

WriterBabe: Or can they be harmonic?

Jjjj1955: ?

NVanlaan: Lots. But took some doing. I had to sound like a Cajun, somebody from Appalachia and

NVanlaan: somebody from the deep south..

WriterBabe: A challenge, eh, Nancy?

NVanlaan: Great fun, though.

WriterBabe: Janet, can you answer my question about voice for pictures and text?

LJLart: In Postcards, I wrote each postcard as if a different student/character was the author.

WriterBabe: Yes, and I loved that, Loreen!  A great approach!

KYWRITE: ?

RhinoInk: It's important that the pictures match each other and the text.

PMunozRyan: ?

WriterBabe: But do they have to have the same voice, Janet?

RhinoInk: For many younger readers the pictures are the voice.

Pkbcmb: ?

WriterBabe: That makes sense.

WriterBabe: Okay, one more question from me, then I'll take questions from the eager crowd.

LJLart: I think the art usually is in harmony with the voice of the text.

WriterBabe: You're all artists, as well as writers (although not all of you illustrate).  How do the

WriterBabe: pictures and art work together?  How do you know what to illustrate?

LJLart: Each affects the other, I go back and forth.

MJAlso: I'm changing art and text all the way through the book.

RhinoInk: Do you mean the text and the art?

WriterBabe: Yes, Janet.

WriterBabe: And Mary Jane, could you elaborate?

MJAlso: It's nice being the author so you can cut text to make room for pictures,

MJAlso: and vice versa.GA

LJLart: Yes!!!

WriterBabe: Gotcha, Mary Jane.

WriterBabe: But how do you know what to illustrate?

RhinoInk: Sometimes working with other authors I find myself re-writing them.

RhinoInk: The stories that is...

LJLart: You draw the images that spring into your mind.

WriterBabe: Do they get angry, Janet?  LOL.

RhinoInk: That is what editors are for!

MJAlso: I work out the pacing with thumbnails, then design on the computer.

LJLart: I use post-its on a piece of paper to make a teensy book plan

LJLart: then use computer to draw dummy.

RhinoInk: I am writing with my sister now.

MJAlso: That's a great idea.

WriterBabe: Nancy, do you have a sense of what you'd like to see illustrated in your stories?

LJLart: I'm working on a project with my brother!

NVanlaan: All the time.

RhinoInk: I am also using the computer for initial design work.

MJAlso: The computer lets you try out so many more possibilities.

CGaley: ?

RhinoInk: I agree

WriterBabe: So, I'm getting the sense that you all see pictures along with text, which is another

WriterBabe: important aspects of pb writing.

WriterBabe: They have to be illustratable!

MJAlso: I loved To Market, Janet.

LJLart: My brother wrote out the story in words according to each page, with ideas for art.

WriterBabe: Sounds simplistic, but I believe it's one of the problems with bad pbs.

RhinoInk: Thanks, MJ

MJAlso: I think most good pb witers are visual, whether or not they illustrate.

WriterBabe: Well-put, MJ.

WriterBabe: Okay, now it's time for audience participation.

WriterBabe: Jjjj, you're first.

RhinoInk: Visualizing the story first is important for me!

Jjjj1955: This voice thing still confuses me.  You say it's like a verbal fingerprint Mary Jane.  Is

Jjjj1955: it like the soul of your writing and how do you know it's comng through? ga

MJAlso: It's your particular way of saying things.  Sometimes if you work too

MJAlso: hard at it, you kill the voice.

Lisa22889: ?

DCBlaine: ?

LJLart: I think The True Story of the 3 Pigs has a distinctive voice.

RhinoInk: Don't want to think about it too much. Just write.

MJAlso: Yes, and When I Was Young in the Mountains - Rylant.

LJLart: Reading other author's books can give you a sense of the possibilities.

WriterBabe: Nancy, do you want to add a comment on voice?

NVanlaan: I don't actually think about it when I write.

LJLart: Voice is partly the attitude that comes across, don't you think?

WriterBabe: Good comment, Loreen.

NVanlaan: Feeling, perhaps.

WriterBabe: Attitude and vocabulary and syntax and the way of speaking, I think.

WriterBabe: And feeling for sure.

WriterBabe: Does that help, Jjjj?

RhinoInk: It could also be characteristics of the drawings (shoes on animals)

Jjjj1955: yes thanks.

LJLart: Sense of humor or drama, what the characters notice, respond to...

WriterBabe: Great comments, gals!

Jjjj1955: I'm still not sure I have it in some of my writing but I think I do in others. ga

WriterBabe: KY, your turn.

LJLart: Yes, there is a voice in the art!

KYWRITE: Sorry GA

WriterBabe: Okay, Pam.

PMunozRyan: Since I don't illustrate, I'm always waiting to hear from an editor whether an illustrator

PMunozRyan: has agreed to a project.  What factors affect an illustrator accepting a manuscript that

PMunozRyan: they didn't write? ga

WriterBabe: (Good question, Pam)

MJAlso: I have to love it as much as I love the Vivian Vande Velde manuscript

MJAlso: I'm doing soon.

WriterBabe: What do you love about it, MJ?

RhinoInk: It has to move me! I've turned down most lately.

MJAlso: It's funnier than anything I've ever written.  Great voice!

WriterBabe: What's wrong with them, Janet?

RhinoInk: They are not GOOD stories.

RhinoInk: They don't have beginning, middle and end.

LJLart: For me, I have too many books of my own to be able to illustrate others.

BekaMouse: ?

WriterBabe: Hmm, that sounds pretty bad, Janet.

MJAlso: Sometimes there aren't enough photo ops.

WriterBabe: Thanks, gals.

WriterBabe: Pkb, you're on.

Pkbcmb: Once your manuscript is accepted, how much editorial input is there in the 

Pkbcmb: final manuscript (typically). ga

RhinoInk: I am writing most of my own books now with my sister.

NVanlaan: Depends on what you've written.  Sometimes very little.  Other

NVanlaan: times not.

LJLart: Some editors just seem to want to change things regardless. ga

NVanlaan: Yes.  Depends on your editor.

LJLart: Sometimes, if you don't make a big deal about it, they'll forget! ga

NVanlaan: I had one that rewrote a story.  I pulled out just about...

WriterBabe: Nancy, what did you do with your story?

NVanlaan: I got mad.  Huffed and puffed.  Then went back to the original.

MJAlso: LOL, Loreen!

WriterBabe: LOL, Loreen.

WriterBabe: I think a good editor has a good sense of what it is you want to accomplish in your book,

JackieZ3: ?

WriterBabe: and helps you accomplish that.

WriterBabe: At least that's been my experience.

LJLart: Often, they make a crucial contribution to a book, even think of the concept (non-fiction). ga

WriterBabe: Good for you, Nancy.

WriterBabe: And I agree, Loreen.

WriterBabe: GA, gals?

Pkbcmb: Thanks very much

LJLart: I like to get the fresh, informed viewpoint of an editor.

WriterBabe: Chuck, your turn.

CGaley: Do you design your layouts & illustrations on the computer and

CGaley: then do the illos traditionally? ga

BOEDEN: ?

MJAlso: I design on the computer and do finals in oils.

LJLart: I'm currently, writing, designing, and illustrating a book all on the 'puter.ga

IronLady32: !

CGaley: !

RhinoInk: I draw, scan, modify on computer, print, then paint

Aplbrk: !

MJAlso: You paint on the print, Janet?

RhinoInk: I am also experimenting with mixing drawing an real objects.

WriterBabe: Iron, you have a comment?

RhinoInk: Yes, I print onto watercolor paper then paint over it.

IronLady32: I am amazed that you use oils which dry so slowly.  Is 

IronLady32: there a particular reason?   I ask because I, too, am an 

IronLady32: artist.

LJLart: Could you explain more about the real objects?

IronLady32: ga

MJAlso: I'm using water soluable oils.  They dry much faster.  I like the richness.ga

RhinoInk: like in To Market, I had digital photos of real things in the drawings

WriterBabe: I'm sorry, but I don't want to get too technical about art tonight, gang.

IronLady32: thanks/

WriterBabe: This is a writers' chat.

LJLart: Sorry, occupational hazard.

WriterBabe: Chuck, go ahead with your comment.

MJAlso: Sorry.

RhinoInk: picture = 1000 words

CGaley: How are you finding editors and AD's responding to digital art? ga

CGaley: This is my last "technical question."  ga "-)

MJAlso: Depends on the house.

RhinoInk: In my case it is difficult to identify digital part

LJLart: They are open to it so far.

WriterBabe: Barbara, go ahead with your comment.

CGaley: Thanks  :-)

WriterBabe: Then the next three questioners are Lisa, DC and Beka.

WriterBabe: Barb?

Aplbrk: What program or software do you use for dummying?

RhinoInk: Photoshop

LJLart: Photoshop for drawing, Illustrator for text. ga

WriterBabe: Lisa, you're on.

Lisa22889: I have heard that good stories have both internal  and external conflict. 

MJAlso: I use Dimensions for 3D setting and bring it into Photoshop.

Lisa22889: Have you noticed this with pbs and if so

Neely f: ++++++++  15 MINUTE  WARNING  +++++++

Lisa22889: are you conscious of this during the writing

Lisa22889: or does it just fall into place? ga

LJLart: Internal as in character's mind?

WriterBabe: Lisa, what do you mean by internal vs. external?

Lisa22889: Internal

Lisa22889: being the thoughts and an internal

Lisa22889: struggle..like do I take the cookies or not

Lisa22889: the external being Mom saying no for example

Lisa22889: ga

MJAlso: I don't get that technical.  I set up a conflict for the character and have him work through

MJAlso: it. ga

WriterBabe: Loreen, Janet, Nancy, what's your response to Lisa?

LJLart: That could be something to keep in mind, can't say I've heard it put like that.

MJAlso: If you put yourself in the head of the character, it takes care of itself.

RhinoInk: Sorry, I need to run. Thanks a bunch. It has been fun!

LJLart: Bye!

NVanlaan: I don't really think about this when I write.  Sorry.

WriterBabe: Janet has another engagement.  Thank you for participating, Janet!

MJAlso: 'Bye, Janet.

Lisa22889: That answers my question, thanks!

WriterBabe: DC, ask away.

RhinoInk: good bye all!

DCBlaine: I want to send 4 pb's at once to several publishers in a truly simultaneous submission...

DCBlaine: Good move? Any thoughts pro/con? ga

LJLart: Not good, you can burn bridges that way.

NVanlaan: Bad move.  What (gasp) if they are all bought at once?ga

WriterBabe: Mary Jane?

MJAlso: I wouldn't send more than one at a time to each publisher.

MJAlso: You're competing with yourself.ga

LJLart: Better to put a time limit , i.e. notify them after a month you're sending it elsewhere. ga

NVanlaan: Not a wise thing to do.

DCBlaine: I'm not a published author...what bridges are there to burn?

WriterBabe: LOL, DC.

Aplbrk: !

LJLart: You are burning potential bridges.

MJAlso: Editors are like elephants.  They remember.

LJLart: Agreed!!!

WriterBabe: Barb, go ahead with your comment.

DCBlaine: i get the picture...

Aplbrk: I think DC has a point.  Multiple submissions for beginners

Aplbrk: is not a terrible idea, and even so for advanced writers.

Aplbrk: The waiting time has become so enormous (1 year or more

MJAlso: I thought she was sending several at once to same house.

Aplbrk: for some) that it isn't fair to tie up a pb with one publisher at

Aplbrk: a time.

LJLart: Must respecfully disagree. 1 year for what?

WriterBabe: I sent my first pb to three publishers simultaneously (because I didn't know any better)--

WriterBabe: with no ill results.

Neely f: ^^**^*^^*^*^*^ 10 MINUTE WARNING  ^*^*^*^*^*^

Aplbrk: Ooops.  Did I get it wrong?  All to the same house?

WriterBabe: I tend to agree with Barb.

WriterBabe: DC, all to the same house?

Aplbrk: I'd say no to all to the same house; competing with yourself

Aplbrk: and all that.

NVanlaan: Editors at different houses know each other.  Still say not wise

NVanlaan: to do.ga

DCBlaine: 4 stories all to different houses

Aplbrk: Marilyn...maybe worth a whole chat some time?

MJAlso: I think submitting to three or four houses at a time is OK, but no more.

WriterBabe: Dunno, Barb.  I think we'd just get twenty different opinions and no answers!  LOL!

WriterBabe: But maybe...

LJLart: I would send them out to different houses one month apart.

Aplbrk: !

DCBlaine: (sorry to take up so much time...ga)

WriterBabe: Maybe an editorial survey.

WriterBabe: I think we should move on.

WriterBabe: Beka, your turn.

BekaMouse: How can you tell if you've written a PB or short story?

WriterBabe: (Sorry, Barb)

WriterBabe: (Good question, Beka!)

NVanlaan: The amount of words used.

LJLart: Length and need for art.

MJAlso: I think it has to do with the number of photo ops.

WriterBabe: MJ, want to add to that?

BekaMouse: But some short stories are only 300 words, and some PB are 1500!

LJLart: A picture book is supposed to tell story with text and art, they are interdependent. ga

WriterBabe: Illustratability is a key.

BekaMouse: Thanks.

WriterBabe: I think depth of characterization and descriptions also make a difference.

LJLart: Some "picturebooks" are really storybooks that have some pictures.

WriterBabe: Would you agree, gals?

NVanlaan: Yes.

WriterBabe: Jackie, your turn.

JackieZ3: I am about to self-publish my first children's activity book. Any input? GA

NVanlaan: Dont know much about that. Sorry. ga

LJLart: Good luck distributing it... I'd self-publish some things too, if I could crack that riddle!

WriterBabe: Self-publishing's tough, Jackie, unless you have much time and energy and outlets to promote

WriterBabe: and distribute.

MJAlso: Give it a cover that will be eye catching.

WriterBabe: Good tip, MJ.

WriterBabe: Sue, last question.

JackieZ3: Initially, I am going to distribute through retail stores where my stationery products are s

LJLart: Advertise in a teacher magazine, go to conferences.

BOEDEN: My question was asked and answered, THX, ga

MJAlso: I think distibution of that kind of thing will be very difficult.

WriterBabe: Gals, how about some final words of advice for our audience?

Neely f: @#@#@#@ 5 MINUTE WARNING @#@##@#

JackieZ3: Thanks for the input. What about at school fund raisers?GA

LJLart: Read Writing With Pictures, by Uri Shulevitz

MJAlso: Try to come up with something new, or a new twist on something old.

NVanlaan: Put your words to music.

JOANWRITE: ?

MJAlso: Grab your audience with the first sentence.

LJLart: Find a 5 year old to be a consultant.

WriterBabe: Great advice!  Joan, time for one more question.

JOANWRITE: Have you ever been asked to lengthen a picture book to a chapter book orlonger?

Ruth Sil: Ditto for USri Shulevitz!

LJLart: Not me.

NVanlaan: Yes. Once.  I still have it in my files.

LJLart: Another good book is Writing on Both Sides of Your Brain.

MJAlso: No.  MId grade kids don't read about chickens!

WriterBabe: MJ, I want to ask you--why poultry????

MJAlso: I just like chickens.  grew up with them.

LJLart: How about Teenage Mutant Ninja Chickens?

MJAlso: Hey Great idea!

HOPEMAR: Thanks to all our knowledgeable guests.

WriterBabe: Cool, MJ!

BKWSSF: ?

WriterBabe: I think our time's up, gang?

Neely f: It's about that time, folks.

DawnLesley: Thanks -- lots of great information

Aplbrk: Goodnight all, and thanks!

JOANWRITE: Thanks guests!  Thanks Marilyn and Donna too.

BOEDEN: Aplause! Aplause!!  Thank you for making the time authors!

LJLart: Thanks for inviting me, it was fun!!!!

6/9/98 6:12:22 PM Closing "Chat Log 6/9/98"