Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume I Number 513

                 Info-ParaNet Newsletters   Volume I  Number 513

 

                          Tuesday, December 17th 1991

 

Today's Topics:

 

                            Mutilated Cattle      2/

                                     (none)

                                     (none)

                            Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

                          Re: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

                                   Omni ONLINE

                                  Ray Stanford

                            Delphos, Kansas Incident

                                Re: Ufo Magazine

                                      Ogden

                            Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

                          Re: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

                                Re: UFO MAGAZINE

                                    Implants

                               Richard Price tape

                                   Kidd Drive

                                Re: Welcome back!

                            Re: Crop Circles: a hoax?

                            Re: UFO BOOK ON COMPUTER

                          Re: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

                            Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

                                   Kidd Drive

                            CUFOS Abduction Videotape


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From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin)

Subject: Mutilated Cattle      2/

Date: 12 Dec 91 15:42:00 GMT



 * Forwarded from "Fido UFO Echo"

 * Originally from Patrick Briggs

 * Originally dated 12-09-91 12:09


>>> Continued from previous message

- A 1971 Ford camper, operated by a "B.L. Chrisensen" is registered to

Dale F. Mackey of Los Angeles, California.


** END OF ARTICLE.

___

 X SLMR 2.0 X Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted!


--  

Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG




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From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush

Subject: (none)

Date: 13 Dec 91 04:26:12 GMT


From: lush@ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory B Lush)


?  Subject:  EARLY AMERICANS

?  Date: 5 Dec 91 18:33:45 GMT

?  

?  From: ZAK@CU.NIH.GOV

?  

?  From: wam.umd.edu!infinity

?  + In July or August 1989 a French anthropological or archaeological journal

?  + published or reviewed a study by a Brazilian archaeologist/anthropologist

?  + concerning remains in northern Brazil dated by thermoluminescence to

?  + be 300,000 years old. This came on the heels of a discovery in the Mojave

?  + Desert, which was at the time quite controversial, concerning 270,000 year

?  + old evidence of human habitation. I have been unable to find the journal,

?  + as I got my information from a news periodical I should have photocopied.

?  -- MORE--

?  

?  Have you seen the book _American_Genesis_ by the-name-escapes-me?

?  


Are you talking about 'American Genesis: a century of invenstion and

technological enthusiasm, 1870-1970' ?


By Thomas Parke Hughes ?


Greg (lush@ecn.purdue.edu)






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From: ecn.purdue.edu!lush

Subject: (none)

Date: 13 Dec 91 04:26:35 GMT


From: lush@ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory B Lush)



? In 1903 the eminent American astronomer Simon Newcomb 'proved' on paper

? that heavier-than-air flight was a mathematical impossibility. Later that

? year the Wright brothers flew a Kitty Hawk.

?

? David E. Coleman    infinity@wam.umd.edu


This reminds me of a story a friend is fond of telling me where

scientists proved that bumble bees cannot fly.


Greg (lush@ecn.purdue.edu)






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From: James.Hudnall@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (James Hudnall)

Subject: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

Date: 13 Dec 91 04:57:01 GMT


Who I write for depends on who I sell to, but my main source of income is 

writing comic books. Mind you, these comic books are not like what you 

probably expect. Comics have changed dramatically in the last ten years. 

What I write are stories aimed mainly at an adult audience. My work is 

mostly political SF thrillers. My latest series is called THE PSYCHO and 

it's about paranormal spies. I'm well known in my field for Espers and Lex 

Luthor: The Unauthorized Biography.


I'm starting to work in Hollywood now on films and I'm also working on a 

novel.


Thanks for asking.  

 

--  

James Hudnall - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: James.Hudnall@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG




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From: James.Hudnall@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (James Hudnall)

Subject: Re: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

Date: 13 Dec 91 05:05:02 GMT



        Uh, what report did your husband write? Something on Bentwaters?


        My feelings on UFOs tend to lean in the John Keel, Jaques Vallee, 

Tim Holiday direction of them being some kind of paranormal manefestation 

that is capable of transmitting virtual reality experiences to the human 

brain. Therefore, my Bentwaters stories (I'll get them written soon) make 

sense, since they are mostly of the ghost/MIB variety. If Keel and co. are 

correct in their elemental theories, these paranormal events preceeding the 

UFO flap there substantiatesa "trend" of sorts.


        I've recently heard another tale from a friend which is pretty damn 

scary. I'll upload that at some point, also.  

 

--  

James Hudnall - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: James.Hudnall@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)

Subject: Omni ONLINE

Date: 12 Dec 91 15:45:24 GMT


In a message to Jim Speiser <10 Dec 91 21:12> Michael Schuyler wrote:



 MS> Jim, CUFON is back up and running with a Seattle-area BBS with

 MS> files only and refuses ANY echo mail connection. (206) 776-0382

 MS> is the number. I've talked with him on the phone a coupla times;

 MS> rather, I listened to him on the phone a coupla times. His main

 MS> thing is to get Congress to open an investigation.

 MS> --Michael 



Good 'ol Dale...still holdin' out against the world...


Jim


--  

Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

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INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)

Subject: Ray Stanford

Date: 12 Dec 91 19:50:06 GMT


In a message to All <08 Dec 91 11:50> Bill Chalker UFORA Associ wrote:


 BCUA> A number of years ago Ray Stanford's PSI group announced it had

 BCUA> some UFO spectra for which they were seeking funds to study.

 BCUA> Ray's group broke up.  I did bump into him at the Washington

 BCUA> MUFON conference in 1987, but unfortunately there was only time

 BCUA> for a hello and little else.

 BCUA> Now Ray has had an extremely varied career.  I was a member for a

 BCUA> while of the AUM group, which published his "Source" material -

 BCUA> ahead of his time given the current in vogue channelling  craze.

 BCUA> But it was Ray's PSI activities that interested me the most.

 BCUA> I gather Ray is now resident in Washington DC area.

 BCUA> The reason I'm asking is that I have a University associate here

 BCUA> in Australia with a specific interest in UFO spectra and who

 BCUA> would be willing to examine credible evidence for UFO spectra.

 BCUA> Now, I cant believe or hope that the spectra has not been

 BCUA> examined by now by some hopefully responsible crowd in the US but

 BCUA> I have not heard anything about it.  Besides this side of it I

 BCUA> would like to renew contact with Ray.

 BCUA> Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.

 BCUA> I saw recently ghe had helped Bob Oechsler in Washington/Maryland

 BCUA> investigations!!!

 BCUA> Regards, Bill Chalker.


Bill:


Wasn't that Project Starlight International? I don't know what their status is,

but I know someone who would. Contact Dale Goudie at CUFON in Seattle. Don't

have his number handy, but its in the 206 area.


I just realized I met you in person at the 87 MUFON conference. We shared an

elevator in the Bethesda Holiday Inn!


Jim


--  

Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)

Subject: Delphos, Kansas Incident

Date: 13 Dec 91 00:14:17 GMT


In a message to All <11 Dec 91 18:05> ncar!cwns5.INS.CWRU.Edu!x wrote:



 nc> A person on the Cleveland Free-Net UFOlogy Sig has asked me about

 nc> the Delphos, Kansas incident and would like to obtain an article

 nc> on this which was in the Journal of UFO Studies, New Series, Vol.

 nc> 1, 1989.


 nc> If anyone has this article or could upload it to me, it would be

 nc> appreciated.  Or if you could tell me where I can write for it, that

 nc> also would be appreciated.


Hi Dale!


The article in question is by Dr. Erol A. Faruk, a chemist. It is called "The

Delphos Case: Soil Analysis and Appraisal of a CE-2 Report." I can type up the

abstract, but your best bet is to get the publication - no ufologist should be

without it. It's $15 from CUFOS, 2457 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659.


Abstract follows:

     

     Three members of a farming family claim to have witnessed an unusual

luminescent object hovering over their land. After departing, the soil over

which the object allegedly hovered was found to have undergone considerable

physical and chemical change, the effects of which lasted for several months

afterwards. Subsequent chemical analysis of the soil provided data which

virtually discounts any hoax interpretation and even goes a considerable way to

corroborating the witnesses' testimony. A plea is made for a conclusive

analysis involving the identification of a single unstable compound which just

might provide evidence of a genuine UFO-related event occurring at Delphos.


Jim


--  

Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Don.Ecker@p0.f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Don Ecker)

Subject: Re: Ufo Magazine

Date: 12 Dec 91 07:06:00 GMT


Linda Bird asked:


 > Can't wait to see the newest issue!

 >

 > Isn't this the one with the interview with Z. Sitchin, too?  <O boy!>


Yep sure is Linda. And more from Sitchin to follow in future issues.


Best;


Don


--  

Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

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INTERNET: Don.Ecker@p0.f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Peggy.Noonan@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Peggy Noonan)

Subject: Ogden

Date: 13 Dec 91 20:57:00 GMT


>WPC<> * Origin: Unknown - Appended by IMAIL 1.0 (9:1040/7)

>371/3

Hi Sheldon,

The above is all there was of your message to me...maybe it'll be in 

another message, but there would appear to be some kind of 

transmission problem somewhere along the line.  Only thing that 

showed up in the mssg I received here on ParaNet Alpha's Mail was 

the origin line.  If the message shows up in another place and you 

get an answer from me, ignore this; if not, please repost.  Thank 

you.

                        ==Peggy==

--  

Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Peggy.Noonan@paranet.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)

Subject: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

Date: 13 Dec 91 14:20:11 GMT


In a message to Jim Speiser <12 Dec 91 21:57> James Hudnall wrote:


 JH> paranormal spies. I'm well known in my field for Espers and Lex

 JH> Luthor: The Unauthorized Biography.


 JH> I'm starting to work in Hollywood now on

 JH> films and I'm also working on a novel.




You lucky guy...sounds like you're doing exactly what I would like to be doing,

if I had the opportunity....



Jim


--  

Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Steve.Rose@p0.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Steve Rose)

Subject: Re: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

Date: 13 Dec 91 23:12:00 GMT



 JH> in my field for Espers and Lex Luthor: The Unauthorized Biography. 

 JH> I'm starting to work in Hollywood now on films and I'm also working on

 JH> a novel. 


Hey...I happen to have enjoyed 'The ESPers'...but I never got into that

L. Luthor thingy.  :)





--  

Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Steve.Rose@p0.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Pete.Porro@f414.n154.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Pete Porro)

Subject: Re: UFO MAGAZINE

Date: 12 Dec 91 17:29:32 GMT


Still looking for that file I promised you last week. After that, "the check 

is in the mail"...

--  

Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Pete.Porro@f414.n154.z1.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Keith.Basterfield@f12.n1040.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Keith Basterfield)

Subject: Implants

Date: 13 Dec 91 03:50:00 GMT


Hi Peggy, You should be receiving a bag of "goodies" from "Down Under" 

about the same time as this message. Happy reading.


--  

Keith Basterfield - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Keith.Basterfield@f12.n1040.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Vladimir.Godic@f7.n1040.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Vladimir Godic)

Subject: Richard Price tape

Date: 14 Dec 91 08:23:00 GMT



 > tape if you'd send the address.  Now I see that I've also had

 > another message of nearly identical content from Keith

 > Basterfield, also of Australia, and also Origin Lined: UFO

 > Research Australia, but hwere yours says UFORA Associate VIC,

 > his says Research Officer.  His netmail address is 9:1040/12

 > while yours is listed as 9:1040/15.


Hi Peggy,


Seeing that you are somewhat confused about two "Keiths", I hope you

won't mind if I answer your message.


UFO Research Australia operates as a network of individual UFO 

researchers and groups in all Australian States. HQ and 

Administration are based in Cairns, Far North Queensland. I don't 

know whether you've seen a message I posted recently on Paranet re 

UFORA moving from South Australia to Queensland. I am Administrator 

and I live now in Cairns, KEITH BASTERFIELD is UFORA Research Officer 

and he lives in South Australia (that is where I used to live until a 

month ago).


KEITH SONERSON is a UFORA Associate and (we have associates in all 

Australian States) he lives in VICTORIA. He is also coordinator for 

our UFORA Victorian Branch.  So you have two "Keiths" with similar 

Christian names but different surnames.


I run Paranet/UFORA which is a private computer network for UFORA 

associates only (not for general public). Currently we have seven 

associates on this network. Both "KEITHS" are on this computer 

network.  Keith Basterfield is 1040/12 and Keith Sonerson is 1040/15.


As it hapened both of them requested that tape from you.

I thought I'd send you a reply because Keith Sonerson did not poll me 

last Thursday (associates poll me twice a week) and therefore did not 

see your message. He'll probably poll me on Sunday.

Regards,

Vlad


--  

Vladimir Godic - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Vladimir.Godic@f7.n1040.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers

Subject: Kidd Drive

Date: 14 Dec 91 14:31:18 GMT


From: chalmers@violet.berkeley.edu (John H. Chalmers Jr.)


 The Kidd anti-gravity drive mentioned in  David Coleman's 

post of a couple of days ago strongly resembles the Dean Drive 

that John Campbell, the editor of Astounding/Analog SF magazine, 

championed  in the late 1950's.  Both claimed to produce a 

'one way push,' both had parts moving in circular paths, 

and both were supposed to be usable as spaceship drives. 

 As I remember, Dean's device  did not use gyroscopes, but 

had rotating weights on a platform that could be pulled upwards 

by a solenoid.  The idea is that if the  parts moved fast 

enough, the device  could always stay ahead of the equal and 

opposite reaction.  

 Dean developed a theory (published as a 'science-fact 

article' in Astounding) that his device operated by a

 hypothetical force he called 'intractance' which was 

proportional to the third time derivative of position 

(velocity is the first, acceleration the second).  Conventional

 physicists and engineers call this quantity 'rate of onset' 

or 'jerk' (or used to; I may be out-of date on 

my engineering terminology), but recognize no forces 

dependent upon its value. 

 As with Kidd, some industrial firms took Dean seriously for 

a while, but lost interest when he never could produce a really 

functional prototype. The  working models had always been 

'tested to destruction.' The ones seen by the public would bounce 

around on the platform of a scale and seem to loose weight, but 

that apparently was an illusion due to the mechanical vibrations.

 Dean appeared to be a true believer in his device and

not a fraud or con artist.

 Campbell proposed installing a large Dean Drive  in an

atomic submarine and converting it into a spaceship. This idea

provoked a lot of mirth from SF writers and fans and inspired

at least one satirical song.  Campbell also held many other 

heterodox ideas and opinions, including a belief in psionics as it

was embodied in the Hieronymous Machine. 

 As editor of Astounding, later called Analog, however, 

he was chiefly responsible for developing modern science fiction 

as a true literary genre and he strongly influenced major writers  

such as Robert Heinlein during the 'Golden Age' of SF in the late 

1930's.

--- John





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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)

Subject: Re: Welcome back!

Date: 15 Dec 91 03:38:00 GMT


Hi Vlad,

 

Thanks for information on your new region.  I remember reading about 

the flattened area in the swamp.

 

When you go out driving at night, be careful!  (Take your bug spray!)

 

Best,

 

Linda

 

<Vlad to himself:  "Now what does she mean: 'Take your bug spray?'">

 

<Linda:  They say the aliens look like bugs/insects....>

 

s


--  

Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)

Subject: Re: Crop Circles: a hoax?

Date: 15 Dec 91 03:44:00 GMT


Hallo Andre, 

 

You said that you think some things about UFO's will come to light next 

year.  Do you suspect the German government is hiding some secrets?  If 

so, do you have some clue/ideas as to what they are hiding?  My friends 

in Bielefeld don't appear to ever hear UFO stories in Germany -- only 

in the USA and a few other places.

 

Thank you,nd Frohliche Weinachten!

 

Linda


--  

Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)

Subject: Re: UFO BOOK ON COMPUTER

Date: 15 Dec 91 03:54:00 GMT


Hi Bill, 

 

We'll be waiting to see how to purchase this in U$ dollar$. 

 

Thanks!

 

Linda


--  

Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)

Subject: Re: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

Date: 15 Dec 91 04:25:00 GMT


Hi James,

 

Yes, my husband wrote a very skeptical report on Bentwaters, based

99% on the recent TV special a few months ago.  He glanced at a couple 

of books here, but like MOST skeptics, did not really do his homework 

and READ any further.  In my opinion, he also asked a lot of impossible 

questions.  <I don't think much of his research methods; and he should 

know better with an M.S. in engineering!>

 

Mike Corbin has a copy of the report and may post parts of it. 

 

Thanks for your inquiry, 

 

Linda

 

 


--  

Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)

Subject: Raf Bentwaters/woodbridge

Date: 15 Dec 91 07:18:49 GMT


In a message to James Hudnall <14 Dec 91 21:25> Linda Bird wrote:


 LB> Hi James,


 LB> Yes, my husband wrote a very skeptical report on Bentwaters, based

 LB> 99% on the recent TV special a few months ago.  He glanced at a

 LB> couple of books here, but like MOST skeptics, did not really do

 LB> his homework and READ any further.  In my opinion, he also asked

 LB> a lot of impossible questions.  <I don't think much of his

 LB> research methods; and he should know better with an M.S. in engineering!>


Linda:


I wouldn't write Birdie off so fast...his questions are important ones, and

NEEDED to be asked. It IS a little interesting that John didn't make an all

out effort to look at the ground impressions, for instance.


Tell Loren that John will be responding soon. And I *WILL* call you tomorrow,

I promise!


Jim



--  

Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)

Subject: Kidd Drive

Date: 15 Dec 91 07:32:49 GMT


In a message to All <14 Dec 91 12:05> ncar!violet.berkeley.edu! wrote:


 nc> or 'jerk' (or used to; I may be out-of date on

 nc> my engineering terminology), but recognize no forces



It was still called "jerk" as of my 12th grade physics class (1974).




 nc> heterodox ideas and opinions, including a belief in psionics as it

 nc> was embodied in the Hieronymous Machine.



What the heck is the Hieronymous Machine?




 nc>        As editor of Astounding, later called Analog, however,

 nc> he was chiefly responsible for developing modern science fiction

 nc> as a true literary genre and he strongly influenced major writers 

 nc> such as Robert Heinlein during the 'Golden Age' of SF in the late

 nc> 1930's.


And don't forget Asimov!


Jim


--  

Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name

INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG




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From: Mark.Rodeghier@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mark Rodeghier)

Subject: CUFOS Abduction Videotape

Date: 15 Dec 91 13:15:01 GMT


In the spirit of Bill Chalker's recent post concerning the new Australian UFO

book on computer diskette, I wanted to make everyone  in this forum aware of

the newly-produced Center for UFO Studies videotape on the abduction

phenomenon.


The tape is about 85 minutes in length and includes interviews with Budd

Hopkins, John Mack from Harvard, Mike Swords, myself, Jerry Clark, and Eddie

Bullard.  It also contains original interviews with Betty Hill and Walter

Webb, who was the original investigator on the Hill case.


The tape is broken into segments, and the first is on the history of CEIII

cases, including the contactee phenomenon.  The producers we worked with

to complete the tape, WPA, obtained unique archival footage of UFO early

UFO conventions, including the fabled Giant Rock meeting in California.

I particularly enjoyed these portions of the tape.


The emphasis in the tape is on a serious discussion of the abduction

phenomenon, and all sides of the issue are presented by the various

participants.  I'm sure I'm biased because of my involvement, but I do

believe that this is the most sober, rational treatment of abduction

reports that has ever been produced on video.


The tape is available for $23.00, postage paid, from CUFOS.  In case you don't

have our address, it's 2457 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL   60659.  Phone

312-271-3611.


We are in the midst of producing three additional tapes as part of a video

series on the UFO phenomenon.  Consequently, we'd be most interested in

comments from those who purchase the tape about content, use of visuals,

graphics, and so forth.  You can direct them to me either on Paranet or

directly to CUFOS.


I'll think you'll like the tape, and so will your UFO-interested friends.

It would be a great stocking stuffer.


Thanks for reading this note, and seasons greetings.     Mark Rodeghier

--  

Mark Rodeghier - via FidoNet node 1:104/422

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INTERNET: Mark.Rodeghier@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG




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