What is a trivial program?

These messages were extracted from recent conversations in the CompuServe
SHAREWARE forum.  They ask, and try to answer the question, "What is a
trivial program?"

Some replies may have been deleted if they were deemed irrelevant to the main
thrust of the conversation.  Other than that, no editing is performed on the
messages you see here.  Most opinions are of a personal nature and they might
not reflect the official views of the Association of Shareware Professionals.
(However, some members in the ASP can and do speak in an official capacity.)

#: 104163 S8/Shareware Issues
    21-Dec-90  18:06:26
Sb: Non-trivial programs
Fm: Tom Sollas 76427,3056
To: All

Outa curiosity, what is (if there is one) the exact definition of a
"non-trivial" program?  I'm guessing it is a program that provides some useful
function to the user.


Tom

* Replies:  104182, 104194, 104199, 104317, 104340

#: 104182 S8/Shareware Issues
    21-Dec-90  19:21:05
Sb: #104163-Non-trivial programs
Fm: Herb Kraft (Home Legal) 76177,1421
To: Tom Sollas 76427,3056

It is (I am not a BOD member) something that would require substantial work.
Ie- not something that a competent programmer could do in a few hours.

George Abbott is the membership czar.

*********

GEORGE

*********

#: 104194 S8/Shareware Issues
    21-Dec-90  20:28:24
Sb: #104163-Non-trivial programs
Fm: George Abbott [PDS*WARE] 72617,1266
To: Tom Sollas 76427,3056

Tom,

I will give a stab at defining non-trivial.  I'm not a Board member and they
have the final say.

It is tough, but, generally, if you or I could code it in an afternoon, it is
trivial.  Now, that is VERY simplistic and each application program that seems
to be trivial is looked at by the reviewer AND at least one Board member.

I hope a Board member will jump in here.  Barry may comment tomorrow evening.

George

#: 104199 S8/Shareware Issues
    21-Dec-90  20:55:10
Sb: #104163-Non-trivial programs
Fm: Paul Mayer (GRAB Plus) 70040,645
To: Tom Sollas 76427,3056

The "few hours" that Herb mentioned is really a few days or a weekend.  If it
is felt that the program could be whipped together in a weekend it is
considered trivial.  The applicant's program must be a 'major" work to
determine if he can produce quality, professional programs. - Paul

* Reply:  104234

#: 104234 S8/Shareware Issues
    22-Dec-90  06:55:40
Sb: #104199-Non-trivial programs
Fm: Herb Kraft (Home Legal) 76177,1421
To: Paul Mayer (GRAB Plus) 70040,645 (X)

Ouch. As noted in this thread, the BOD does acutally have at least one member
run a program to see if they agree with reviewer and membership coordinator's
view of triviality. I'm glad I said that I was speaking unofficially. HERB

#: 104317 S8/Shareware Issues
    22-Dec-90  19:42:54
Sb: #104163-#Non-trivial programs
Fm: Rob Rosenberger ASP OP 70007,4004
To: Tom Sollas 76427,3056

   "Trivial," by my definition, normally means software a good programmer can
substantially duplicate in two man-days or less.  I remember a guy once wrote
a 17-line batch file combined with a 15 man-minute utility, and he planned to
charge $55 for it.  Sometimes authors create a program to send Epson printer
commands to the printer: no matter how fantastic the user interface, I can
substantially duplicate it in a day or two.  (After all, it just sends Epson
printer commands to the printer.)

   Does this mean all batch files and printer command programs qualify as a
trivial product?  No way!  You can of course expand on these themes.  You'd
probably get into the ASP if users could modify the output strings of your
printer command program so it worked with any printer, and if you included
defaults for dozens of major printers.  [I don't recommend writing one since
too many good ones already exist.]

   In some cases, "trivial" applies to a program developed almost verbatim
from canned code.  I've seen quite a few text editors created from Borland's
Editor Toolbox, for example.  The authors alter the copyright notices, maybe
add a help screen, and then call it their own work.

   Does this mean all programs developed from canned code qualify as trivial?
Again, no.  Canned code serves as a foundation, sort of like a basement.  If
you build a house on top of it, great -- but some people put a tarp over the
basement and expect us to call it a house.

   I hope this clarifies a bit what ASP considers "trivial."

                                                ASP sysop Rob

* Reply:  104330

#: 104330 S8/Shareware Issues
    22-Dec-90  21:20:22
Sb: #104317-Non-trivial programs
Fm: Lee-Jeff Bell (Rubicon) 71307,1212
To: Rob Rosenberger ASP OP 70007,4004 (X)

I should think that any program that makes money should be regarded as
non-trivial! It is unlikely, however, that anyone can write such a program in
a few days, or even a few weeks.

#: 104340 S8/Shareware Issues
    22-Dec-90  23:24:06
Sb: #104163-Non-trivial programs
Fm: Barry Simon 76004,1664
To: Tom Sollas 76427,3056

Tom - In retrospect, non-triviality isn't the best term to use; perhaps
"substantiality" would be better but we've been using this wording for 3+
years and there's never been any push to change it.

The original motivation for the requirement has to do with the P in ASP.  We
wanted evidence that the applicant was really a serious programmer.  One of
the board members at the time described it well - we don't want to admit
someone who whips up a sorted directory lister in an afternoon.

This doesn't mean the program can't be useful.  If you run Windows, have a com
3 and an old BIOS, you've got to set some bytes in low memory.  If you need
such a program, it could be very useful but its something I could write in 5
minutes.  It's exactly the sort of thing that a good programmer should post
for free (and several have!) and which ASP doesn't want to encourage as a fee
item.  And any duffer could write it in Turbo Pascal in 10 minutes so it
hardly shows seriousness as a programmer.

Ever applicant rejected has their program looked at by a board member before
rejection so we've had cases where a reviewer suggests triviality and the
program is passed on.  To simplify the process, if an applicant program looks
trivial, the initial reviewer may be a board member.

                                                -  Barry

* Reply:  104672

#: 104672 S8/Shareware Issues
    26-Dec-90  11:41:42
Sb: #104340-Non-trivial programs
Fm: Tom Sollas 76427,3056
To: Barry Simon 76004,1664 (X)

Thanks, guys.  That's about the last area in ASP that I'm a tad bit confused
on.

One should be careful with a specific time period, however.  I've (and I am
sure we all) have seen some pretty trivial programs that took more than a week
to write! {grin}

Tom

End of messages - By the way, Tom is now an ASP member.

George Abbott - ASP Author Membership Coordinator